I like that you say "what military aircraft designer worth his salt" when you ignore that they blow up in apparently nuclear mushroom clouds when hit by small arms fire. (I've shot them down with assault rifle in FO3). Hence why I hate with a passion the hollywood effects added by gamesas. It makes no sense. Plus if you actually pay attention Very little cars made the jump to fusion power. The tech was extremely new at the time of the war. Only like a year or so for the public market. It was a military research project after all.

EDIT: Tune I'd like to see one suit of PA do the lifting a Vertibird does. XD I'm not making judgments I'm only telling you whats set down, it's not my fault you can't accept them. Vertibirds are designed as a short range VTOL aircraft, why can't you seem to accept it? OK your PA example. T-51b is said to have enough fusion power fuel for 100 years right?

It lifts 75 lbs for 100 years. I think that won;t cut it for a vertibird. You also have no Idea how that tech up scales again your making assumptions. I'm only dealing in "facts" as they are handed out in FO2.

I'm inclined to agree; it seems likely that while traveling to the East Coast they would have staged off of surviving airfields or Enclave outposts like Chicago (or they could have just found Vertibirds at Raven Rock).

Still, I think ED-E attracts a little less attention than a Vertibird might.

agreed

But prehaps they could reach Chicago though (Who knows maybe thats why an Outpost is there? The Enclave found/have some stored Oil Reserves, that while limited, allowed trans-continental flight).

EDIT: Andaius, I never said that them blowing up in Fallout 3 due to small arms fire wasn't illogical.

If we go by game stats, it takes multiple shots to the head or chest to kill an unarmored human. Don't think we want to go there.

And yeah, it was new military technology, which is why I'm comparing it to modern-day military technology, not civilian technology.

I don't find the Vertibird mini-explosion too illogical since in "reality" anything that was able to breach its armor and damage the reactor would kill a conventionally powered aircraft too. However, the blast radius seems a little ridiculous given that it's designed to hot-drop troops into combat. Generally you don't want your troop transports blowing up and killing the troops they've already dropped off en masse.

I have to admit, this has turned into one giant thread haha. 8 pages and counting...

My theory is they set it up on their way to DC as a relay. Also makes sense to add a fueling station with it. I would not say they are using fossil fuel. I like to think they made a deal with the MWBoS for biodiesel/ethanol. MWBoS under general Barnaky :shifty:

Why is it so bad to question whats set down? Thats all we're doing. No hard feelings or anything, none of us hate the originals (indeed it seems all of us have played them quite a bit). I just think its something that can be questioned.



Now that would be interesting. We need Fallout 4 in the Midwest.

Hmm...not sure how I would feel about a Enclave/MWBOS alliance or deal....would make a very intriguing plot. :celebration:

Andaius, I can accept that Vertibirds are a shorter range VTOL aircraft, what I can't accept is the fact that their range as supported by you is nonsensical. The US Army's modern VTOL aircraft, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell-Boeing_V-22_Osprey has a maximum range of 2200 miles; surely its fusion-powered 2077 equivalent would at least be able to come close to that instead of "boasting" a maximum range of one-sixth that distance? "Because Black Isle said so" simply isn't a good enough explanation, especially as you yourself constantly question Bethesda canon. I should be accorded the same ability to question Black Isle canon that doesn't make sense to me.

And obviously Power Armor won't lift as much as a Vertibird does, it's a smaller power source for a smaller device. Just wanted to provide an example of how advanced Fallout military power sources are.

I am going off topic but I have given it alot of thought http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1165500-will-the-midwestern-brotherhood-of-steel-ever-return/page__view__findpost__p__17141661

Yeah I read that when you wrote it Styles and I have to say I would LOVE it if your ideas were featured in a Midwest Fallout 4. It would make for a really good story. :foodndrink:

So then, I'm still thinking about the multiple bases theory here, and just would like to see what you guys think:

Please post one of the following numbers that you feel best represents the Enclave's strength:
1) Superpower with bases Everywhere! ------------------------------ 1

2) Strong with bases spanning all of the United States ------------------ 2

3) Moderately sized with a handful of bunkers ------------------------ 3

4) Small with one last Buker/Base --------------------------------- 4

5) A few outposts/relay stations ----------------------------------- 5


Just would like to see where the general consensus is at.

Cheers,
Mk II

4 or 5 with 4 being the max.

5) A few outposts/relay stations ----------------------------------- 5

@ Lt. Andronicus, thanks :foodndrink:

5, as the Chicago presence is specifically described as an outpost.

They've lost too many personnel to maintain any large bases as of 2281.

Oh I'm not getting hostile or heated, I'm just saying that all your "arguments" are based on either real world applications, that are clearly contradicted by in game lore, or your saying what amounts to "that svcks it should be better!"

Also I'm having fun, I like to debate. As styles mentioned some times it's hard to tell tone via text. So I'm not like screaming at you folks when I did those Bolds and big letters I was just making sure you see them.

Again tune your using "IRL" examples, FO doesn't use "IRL" for explaining the "future tech". Who know maybe they got the distance from the oil rig wrong? It just stated that Vertibirds can't make a non-refueled trip from and back to the oil rig. The oil rig is said to be about 175 miles off the coast. Ergo VERTIBIRDS have a maximum range of less than 350 miles. It doesn't matter that other aircraft that don't even exist in the FO world can do better. Maybe the Vertibird can lift 20x what the Osprey can it's engines are very strong but power hungry? Maybe the tech is still not perfected and it's extremely ineffiecent and prone to malfunction? It doesn't say exactly whats going with it to make it that way it simple IS that way.


EDIT: I'd say 5, IF they are even bothering to man them still. The remaining personnel I think would have long since blended in (like the Remnants you see in NV) or formed new organizations, like maybe Mercs or joined up with local powers.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then; I just can't buy that a futuristic, fusion powered military aircraft could be so woefully limited in relation to the (by comparison) primitive ones we have today. That's one point of FO2 lore I'm going to have to strongly disagree with.

TheTuninator but you do are they can't travel across oceans and America.

Andaius: If you are worried they think Vertibirds are able to fly none-stop around the world, don't. Many agree they can't. They just question 175 miles. Saying its not hard to think they can't at least travel 500miles.

Your just thinking in the wrong terms. Example the M1 Abrams uses a aircraft engine, same as used in the Cobra attack helio, I think. Compare the ranges of those two. Since they never give specs like weight and payload capacity maybe Vertibirds are extremely bulky and well armored, or can carry extreme payloads.

I don't think they can travel across oceans, no, but I simply can't agree to a (upper-limit) maximum range of 350 miles as credible.

@Andaius-Again, we clearly have different perspectives on this, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Nothing you say is going to convince me that the ranges for Vertibirds that Fallout 2 gives are remotely accurate, sorry.

I would tend to agree.

If you want to think where the Enclave from Fallout 3 came from then its probable they came from Chicago. The armour in Fallout 3 is very similar to the Brother hood armour in fallout Tatics.

hehe, You guys can accept that radiation causes giant mutants and ghouls in the FO universe but you can't accept that a Vertibird only has very short range...*shakes head*

See, it's the difference between "It's sci fi so it doesn't have to be explained" and "It's actually mostly grounded in reality" that bothers me.

Ghouls and mutants are completely absurd and implausible, but a fusion-powered VTOL aircraft is within the realm of possibility, and as such I'm going to apply certain standards to its existence that I wouldn't to something entirely made up. If Fallout 2 said the effective range of a missile launcher or minigun was 20 feet, would you believe that simply because mutants and ghouls exist in the game? Of course you wouldn't, because it doesn't make any sense.

If you want to go with whatever statistics Black Isle threw out, that's your prerogative, but please recognize that those of us who choose to question Fallout 2 on this matter have legitimate grounds to do so.

Well its kinda the same thing as the "lack of plausible settlements in Fallout 3" debate isn't it? i.e there is no agriculture and that is illogical? Prehaps this question is not as noticeable or important but we are thinking along the same lines. I seem to recall a statement saying "you guys can accept mutants and stuff but not the lack of corn around a settlement?" :tongue: (apologies if you take no side in that debate)



Don't want to turn this into a versus thread but I don't think there's anything wrong with simply questioning the logic of something in the game and wondering if its right. Fallout 2 is not a bad game because of it or anything I just think that it's a topic that can be looked at with some scrutiny. Just because it is an OG (original game) doesn't exempt it from having some of its details and the logic behind them questioned.



:foodndrink:

We know were they came from. They came from Navarro. The armours do look the same, thats why I hope in the future we find that the MWBoS and Enclave remnants have an alliace.

Best bet IMO is that the ones in Chicago also came from Navarro after Fallout 2.