Thats what I like to see! :celebration:

Eden for 2012!

1) Raven Rock and the Chicago Outpost hadn't even been thought of then, as I constantly point out in one of the non-canon endings to Fallout 2 the "survivors of the Enclave" are accepted into the NCR in the ending where the NCR becomes a fascist dictatorship, the NCR are the vairiable not the Enclave, screw the Remnants from New Vegas not being able to another base, the whole of Navarro collapsed!

2) Why would the President have a Poseidon Oil status board in his room, anyone who said that to you should have been instantly corrected thusly, "The Oil Rig was either contructed for or re-furbished for Enclave use, it is the Presidential Office, why would he a leave a board from an entirely different, now dead, organisation there?" I figured that it just marked locations of importanance, the whole "Around the globe statement" could just be taken as being descriptive or something and I feel that that is the way it will go and as Styles pointed out the Bible also quotes the US Army to have only several hundreds soldiers.



Only 4 of 26 dots have been visited, I doubt Bethesda's placing of the Enclave there had anything to do with the map whilst the Chiciga Outpost may have been I suppose but the question has already been asked, why would they not just go there? The Remnants I mean, those who went East were pressumabely under presidential orders.



That's a silly arguement, who in the name of God came back at you with "He's surprised,"? However, satilites exist for communication even into F3 and I think we can assume that they are solar powered, they have Navarro which they communicate with, how would they be surprised to see other Enclave forces, who'd you think the Communications Officer would be mainly talking too? I think that the loss of Navarro was simply classified for the sake of moral and Whitely sent ED-E to Navarro under this assumption; I don't see that he didn't contact the Chicago Outpost months in advance to tell them something was coming.



The Enclave simply found it, there is no evidence that it moved and it's resemblance to a NASA Rocket Transporter is purely coinsidence seeing as how it clearly is not a converted crawler, that's some pretty wild speculation even for me. The Enclave's Base of Operations in DC is Raven Rock, the crawler was simply there. There was pressumabley at least a 30 years gap between Fallout 2 and F3, The Brotherhood have been in DC for 20 years, it took them like 3 to get there I think. Also, you call the DC branch a "small group of remnants" before lating explaining that there sheer size must indicate a large presence.




A ) Already confirmed
B ) Chicago pretty much confirmed, that is all
C ) Already Confirmed by Hellfire which is stated to be a Raven Rock construction.
D ) That is just silly and Bethesda wanting to bring them back again, talk to death

The Enclave's way of restoring America to it's Post-War status is a bit over-zealous at the least. In FO3, the player has a chioce to conatminate Project Purity with a modified FEV virus that can kill any one that has a mutation. An idea of President Eden, it would literally kill off the population in the Capitol Wasteland. The future of America is better left to another faction that doeln't massacre hundreds of innocents in an attempt to "clense America".

Of course "clense America" had to be in quotes as though it were an ethnic clensing, ie, the Enclave are nazis obviously :rolleyes: . They don't want to "clense America" because they just don't like mutants, the people of the wasteland will never respect their legitemacy and are born with genetic defects from the radiation that there ancestors aquired after the war, these are passed down like any other genetic trait, mutants don't just have to be Ghouls you know.

My only interjection is they 'found it'. Based on my nerdy need to over anolyze high end things in game. I think the Mobile Crawler was constructed by the Enclave FOR the Enclave. the tech, the lighting, if it isn't Enclave, it must have been a high end in construction vehicle built by the USAF, which wouldnt make sense, seeing as Adams Airforce Base is...well... an airforce base. I think the Enclave has been building that thing through out the the span of time since their arrival to answer Edens Call. Their establishment at AAB is to well organized, even for The Enclave, for it to be a 'we magically fled here' set up. My assumption is AAB and the Rockland Satellite bases were slowly cared for over time, and the Brotherhood pushing up against the Enclave forced them to go from slowly repairing and doing their thing into overdrive defensive mode.

Although the "cleansing" is highly questionable, they don't want to do this any more by the events of Fallout 3; they want to rule over the Wasteland, not destroy it.

That probably has something to do with the fact that the losses they have sustained are too heavy to maintain a viable population.

More than likely it would have been a temporary arangement until somebody with more stones than Autumn took over, Eden was just a machine acting on what he perceived the Enclave's ultimate objective to be.

Vertibirds don't have the range anyway. they could barely make it from the oil rig to Navarro. How could they get around the planet? Also like it's been said, the vaccine wasn't finished when the chosen one attacked the oil rig. Just face it, The Enclave had only "one" basket and it got blasted when the chosen one nuked it. Navarro only had something like what 50 people there? Also the enclave used P.O. satellite communication network to talk to each other, assuming because it was the only thing still working. So they have P.O. companies locations marked on there map. (like the Gecko power plant.) they had a government network to and it listed several major military bases, all showing as off line/ destroyed. (Like NORAD.)

there was a Vault built into the oil rig IIRC that was the extent of the Enclaves man power. there plan was to wipe the earth of mutants, then use the control vaults to repopulate a new America. The Enclave had Gecks on the oil rig, the Vaults had Gecks as well. So no worries on how they would build up society again.

Pretty much everything you see of them in FO3 is made up completely disregarding the events after FO2. NV is 1000x more plausibility to what happened to the Enclave's survivors. The enclave had only Navarro on the main land. they used it to get the chemicals they needed to finish up there Virus.

Could they not use ships, and don't forget "They're the Government they plan for EVERYTHING!!! :tongue: The personnel at Navarro now must have been more than 50 or even 100, too be fair we have no idea of it's size, judging by quotes from Navarro staff I personally believe that other outposts existed and after the Oil Rig they all reconveined at Navarro. They communicated via PoseidoNet (though logging into EnclaveNet was mentioned on the terminal in Navarro) which is a satilite system which was connected to many major government installations.



The plan wasn't always to wipe out the populace of the mainland but that became the main plan 70 years before Fallout 2 (2170's)



Fallout 3 really blew everything out of proportion with the Enclave, Andaius where were you when we had a huge discussion on the various plot-holes concerning the 2242-2277 period of Enclave history?

Don't Vertibirds have a fusion reactor? If so, they should have nearly unlimited range.

We also probably can't really evaluate the actual population of Navarro based on Fallout 2, as the base has no doubt been scaled down for game purposes.

They still need fuel, or maybe they use fission batteries which need recharging, that's what I'm going with; the Enclave is Eco-Friendly

Oh I know all about that, I'm just saying it's pointless to try and put together a "why and how" the FO3 enclave got all there stuff from looking back on the Enclave we see in FO2. Mostly because it amounts to gamesas just pulling all the stuff out of there asses to make them the "big bad" in there plot retread. Just like the BoS and Super Mutant presence.

As for ships, I'd say "no" the Enclave docked the oil tanker in San Fran, then sabotaged it so it would "never move again". However the chosen one get's repair parts and the FOB and the biosynth fuel from the Shi, or was it the hubs? So basically the only boat that could get to the oil rig they made sure could be used. The used only Vertibirds to get to the main land. I'm also guessing they didn't use boats so they could be tracked back to the oil rig. Since there is like fishing boats and stuff. If they see boats and stuff moving out to see people might start to get curious as to whats out there. ( I guess.) they never mention any other boats aside from the tanker.

Edit: @tunin

http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/e/e0/Fo2_Navarro_Main_Base.png

there be Navarro. It looks liek the barrels on the side in the fenced off area is a fuel dump for refueling to me.

Well as to exactly what kind of fuel they use, it's some what unclear. From what I got from FO 2 they used liquid fuel. the remains of the Fossil fuel from the Oil rig. However they could use electric engines. Since pretty much all new military tech was making the transition to fusion power batteries. However that would be a big "no" on the unlimited range. It was clearly stated that the Vertibirds from the Oil rig HAD to stop to refuel at Navarro because they didn't have the range to make the trip back.

From the Vertibird wiki page: WEST COAST OPERATIONS

"Vertibird range was at least 175 miles distance between the oil rig and Navarro. Accessible were Klamath, Redding, Gecko[1], New Reno and Vault 13. According to the Shi, Vertibirds flew over San Francisco on the way from Navarro to the oil rig."

I was only joking on the whole boats front, some people just assume "Government" therefore a million continuation plans, every base covered. Seriously I was talking to someone on here who thought that there was an Enclave in the Enclave and that the Fallout 2 were a branch being observed without them knowing by another totally secret Enclave somewhere else.

Lolz, I don't think your boat Idea was bad however. I'm just saying that the tanker was the only boat that you see that goes to the Rig. that's also thanks to the captain being Ex-enclave himself too.

I guess you could get to the oil rig with a paddle boat but it's what like 180+ miles out to sea? then you'd only get blasted out of the water by a Vertibird since the oil rig had RADAR. I guess the Enclave could have used boats too, but since they had no "port" bases I don't think they had a navy. I'm just telling you how I see it.

Answers in bold

"Exactly my point. But seeing as how every ingame location (or mention) of Enclave bases have been on this Emap, It looks like it is pointing towards the rest of the dots being base locations as well."

"Why wouldn't they go there? I think probably because any information about the locations of these bases/ how to get to them would have been destroyed with the rig."

"Its my way of trying to point out that the Enclave in FO3 was way to big to be only comprised of remnants from Navarro."


The Dots on the map could be just old weather station for all we know. After all they needed to know about the Jet-stream. In my other posts I think I made it clear why there can't be any bases in other parts of the world.

If they new about the bases they would have gone to them first, other people more qualified then Eden would have been at these other bases.

Fallout 3 did have to many Enclave in Fallout 3 but Fallout 3 also tells us that DC was Enclave free till the remnants showed up.

You are using "Whac-A-Mole" logic. I tell you about the Virus needing an inoculation. So you say they would have sent the inoculation to other bases, which means they must have unknown craft to get there. Then when we say "why did the Enclave not go there after the Rig?" You say they did not know about the other bases. But then what about the inoculation?! Point about the Enclave would have split the government up and send them around the world so as to not put all their eggs in one basket, which means Eden would not have been president in Fallout 3, also how would the bases communicate? Unknown craft that can take them around the world?

My other posts explain it better then this one. So anyone reading this I ask go back and read a few other posts. "The other bases around the world" theory is not canon and makes no sense and is not supported by the games.

I have tried to articulate why they could know where the bases are and yet still not be able to find them after the destruction of the oil rig... But I will try again.

All important data for the west coast Enclave would be held on the Oil Rig (kind of like a HQ), including locations of other Enclave bases. This means any contact with other Enclave bases BEFORE the Oil Rig went "boom" would be possible (such as physically sending over inoculation). That is before the Oil Rig blew up though. Seeing as the Remnants where at Navarro, after the Rig blew up, most information concerning the whereabouts of other Enclave bases would be destroyed with the Oil Rig. So they would have to rely on any message sent to them. That would come from President Eden, who claimed to be next in line for presidency, and they would have to follow their orders and trek to the east coast. I do not see a "whac-a-mole" logical problem here.

And it has been said before that Important persons (such as President and the government) are the individuals who went to the Oil Rig (basically all of their leadership). My quote refers to the whole of the Enclave who would have been a much larger organization with lower level members stationed at less important bunkers (like places in Chicago).

And styles, there have been many revisions to FO bible. If Chris made a mistake as big as this, it would have been corrected (it was in since the first release). No offense, but who should I trust more? the story writer or some Forum user who claims the WRITER is wrong?

Cheers,
Mk II

The Whole Enclave Government was on the Rig because there were no other bases. I ask people: "Why have bases around the world when the World hated America?" I get "The Enclave would not put all their eggs in one basket!"

So someone would have to run those bases and they would have split up the government, which the bible so many quote said. Yet the Entire Government died on the Rig leaving a computer to be the only one that can be president.

If they knew about these bases before the Rig was destroyed, how did they get there? Unknown craft? Why would all these unknown craft be on the Rig? After the Rig blows up how did they forget about the other Bases? Wouldn't the Back up base of Raven Rock also have these Unknown craft and the the ability to locate these other bases? If so Eden would no longer be president.

I call it Whake-A-Mole logic because I give a reason why it can't be and you come up with another theory. I explain why that does not work and you go back to the first. Also because Enclave are dead or very close to it yet fans insist in making stuff up so we can once again whake them. I am sorry if I am sounding rude.

The Wiki/Vault so many go to have all copies of the Bible. And the wiki/Vault is also done by fallout fans.

Edit: The Vault is not writen by Chris Avellone, there has been mistakes, he has fixed (I don't know when he last worked on it.) Also the Bible is not canon, the games trumps the Bible. It is a great source for Lore but the games make Canon and the games don't support bases around the world theory.

Communication, seeing as how Navarro was a mandatory stop on the way to the Oil Rig any other outposts would have been in contact with it and then when the Oil Rig was destroyed they would obviously have told them and then plans would be made between them, infomation like "where the few outposts of our dying civilisation are" will be kept on more than one computer.

The World did not hate America. China did. Europe hated the Middle East, The US and Russia hated China (and via versa). In the end everyone was nuked because everyone had enemies with Nukes, but that does NOT mean they all hated each other. The US could buy land from friendly nations. Europe was Friendly. Russia was Friendly. Africa was poor (and mostly uninvolved I think). South America is not mentioned, and most of Asia seemed to nothing the US. China, and only China, was the only Major nation that hated the USA.

They might not have to send anyone to hand out the inoculation it at all even. If the Air system was like the oil rigs at all, it would be sealed up and re filtered making it so no new air got into the base. then, when they get to these new bases, they simply send a message (like the way they asked for entrance into V13) but this time say "we are sending in a inoculation to a very deadly disease, send out men with air filters (Power Armor) and then distribute the inoculation to your population...". That could be another way.

One more thing... I believe it was you (or someone else) who said they retreated around the globe but then reunited after the fallout at the rig. That would require your "un-known craft" problem to be solved... so from the way the fallout bible was written (BY THE CREATORS OF FALLOUT WITH AMPLE AMOUNTS OF TIME FOR CORRECTIONS), the Enclave would be scattered around the globe.

And it STILL sounds "whac-a-mole" to you? What part, because the Inoculation/location one I just explained... so if its something else, tell me so I can clarify



No Enclave Personnel made it off the Rig (except that small group of soldiers that you can convince to come with you, but they just got back from a patrol with Horrigan, and don't even know the base is about to blow, let alone understand the need to get this information).

Its like me asking for the exact link for this post but throwing away your computer before you can copy it down. Its not something easy to remember. You need coordinates and proper identification that would be near impossible to have unless you have the information written down and on you at all times.



Edit:

"The Vault is not writen by Chris Avellone, there has been mistakes, he has fixed (I don't know when he last worked on it.) Also the Bible is not canon, the games trumps the Bible. It is a great source for Lore but the games make Canon and the games don't support bases around the world theory. "

Yes. Then he would have fixed that if it was wrong. That would be as major as mutants not being sterile. In game we know there are their outposts manned outside Raven Rock and California (Chicago). That SUPPORTS THE IDEA OF MULTIPLE BASES. What can you show as in-game support against these two sources? I have both in game canon and fallout bible supporting this...

World did hate America and America hated the World. Everyone was out for themselves.


"In the 21st century war was still waged for the resources that could be acquired, only this time the spoils of war were also its weapons, petroleum and uranium. For these resources China would invade Alaska. The US would annex Canada and the European Commonwealth would dissolve into quarrelling bickering nation states bent on controlling the last remaining resources on Earth."

Also, Fallout Bible is not Canon. The games trump the Bible. Chris Avellon was the writer of the Bible and he has not worked on it for years.

Your basing it all on one line from the bible which is wrong and yet can't come up with anything logical to support your theory. I ask alot of questions and I get no answers. You contradict yourself alot as well.

Okay a few things on communications.

Targetting satellites is almost prime a target as a city.

Someone pointed out that bases, etc, had a offline message in terms of communication.

That does not mean the base is destroyed. That could just as easily mean the satellite link to that base was destroyed, thus it would register as offline.

If groups have no communication, they are just going to presume they could be all that left and go with plan of survival.

Not all enclave grunts are going to know what other bases exists, what all plans are, etc. This is impossible and defeats purpose of secret organization.

If enclave in chicago, and enclave in east, are all survivors of rig, then they pretty much already know navarro screwed, or will assume it screwed. Unless there something we don't know, makes no sense to send Ed-E west, especially packed full of info about Poseidon tech. Why for? So enemies can use it? Dur.

As far as virus, it again, business as usual. Regardless if all enclave there, they gonna go with plan, not sit and wait, and if enclave end up dying from virus or are safe in vaults or bunkers, whatever. If plan works, they golden. If failure, other enclave groups will figure it out eventually.

Vertibirds can't make it east? A car can't make it coast to coast without stopping to refuel with whatever form of fuel they using. So, they go, stop, refuel, go again. I fail to see anything that makes me think there are not enclave scattered around, or any kind of proof that they are not. Both sides of this arguement are making best educated guess.

For good example on communications, one, one measily tower is messed up by my house, and thus my communications are severely hampered. And there are no tech crews heading out to fix them in nuclear apoc world....

Where does that state hate? Europe hated each other/Middle East, US hated Canada (not really, but had to take them over) and China. Where does that state hate between US and Europe?

World is on the last scraps of resources on earth. They would not help one another. America asked for help against China and the EU told America to shove off, then the EU fell apart. America also closed it borders and China controlled most of Asia. SO yeah the world hated America and America Hated the World.

Also, Fallout Bible is not Canon. The games trump the Bible. Chris Avellon was the writer of the Bible and he has not worked on it for years.

Your basing it all on one line from the bible which is wrong and yet can't come up with anything logical to support your theory. I ask alot of questions and I get no answers. You contradict yourself alot as well.

I know that FOB is not cannon. But I Have a cannon source backing up what the bible says, giving it even more credibility. And now, when I point that out, You claim I know nothing and claim I am making baseless claims? I expected better of you styles.

Give me a source that discredits what I just gave you.

Cheers,
Mk II