Haven't you, among others said "not everyone i n the government was Enclave". Well, not all Enclave are politicians. They may think, in fact, they may even believe, but they have to assume, they are it. That is how it works in war. There will be no cavalry coming to save the day. That is what you got to think, oon rig, or someplace else.

Eden becomes president. You assume there is another human who could be in position to claim presidency, but that could not be the case, for many reasons. Eden just making best of given situation in attempts to organize what he can.

I don't think there gonna be some huge army that pops up. But, it is quite possible there are several Enclave bases, bunkers, outposts scattered all over, some prolly in better shape than others.

But evlbastrd arn't you one of the people that say Enclave would not put all their Eggs in one basket? If you believe that so strongly then you have to see the logic in sending other high ranking people within the Enclave to other bases after all Enclave - Mk II believes they must have had contact with these other bases. So these other high ranking memebers of the Enclave would be each given command of their own base. Each set to be president if the others are killed. Very logical. Now the problem with this is, Richardson dies on the Rig and Eden becomes president. A Computer that only became president because there simply was no one else. Which means there were no other bases around the world.

I can't see the Enclave putting bases around the world and only having military people in command. They would split up the leaders just like you and the bible quote says but the evidence does not point to this. We have three Fallout Games all pointing to the Enclave only being within America. First in the West and then in the after they were destroyed in the West.

There is no evidence they had/have the ability to travel around the world, which means their plan in Fallout 2 would have killed anyone not on the rig.

I don't agree about the Enclave splitting up leadership around the globe (who'da guessed right? :whistling: ). If you look at today, command centers are usually centralized in one position. Governments have capitols while Armies have field HQs. So why would the Enclave change that?

The way I see it would be done is as follows:

1) Enclave Essential personnel are sent to the Oil Rig (Such as the President, President's cabin, Congress, Military Staff, etc)

2) Enclave "grunts" (or in other words regular soldiers) are placed is separated bases in various locations around the world. These grunts are put under the command of the equivalent of a overseer for each Base.

3) The government is able to quickly function and make important decisions without the fear of communication failure. Decisions can then be sent to various bases depending on the situation. (using PosideoNet for their communication substrate)

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The problem with this is that why wouldn't these Navarro remnants go to these other locations following the destruction of the oil rig? To this, I can think of 2 answers:

1) Information on how to get to these locations was destroyed with the Oil Rig.

2) Or these other locations only had enough space for the people they had (seeing as the place would be self sufficient only up to a certain size). Raven Rock, being empty, gave these Remnants a place they could move to as a whole group, and Presidntial orders told them to move there.

Cheers,
Mk II

Then what motivation would these "Grunts" have to stay at their post? Lost contact around 2241. Still no way to get there personally so they would have died when the virus came. Raven Rock for sure would have contact with them and I can't see any reason why Navarro would not have the information. Enclave would have figured out a way to maintain a link to the other bases incase the worse happened, which is the destruction of the Rig.

Yet three Fallout Games and no ingame evidence of these so called bases.

Still no sign of any way to travel the globe :whistling:

I have to admit, I don't really get how something with a nuclear fusion reactor can have a range of only a few hundred miles. Nuclear-powered military equipment today runs for years without needing refueling, and that's with much less advanced fission reactors. If Vertibirds have fusion reactors, shouldn't they be able to range across the entire country without refueling?

In any case, there's no way they would have needed to refuel after a journey of not even 200 miles; such a vehicle would be completely useless for military applications. Modern-day helicopters on IC engines can get over a thousand miles before they need to refuel; Vertibirds should be blowing those stats out of the water.

I always took the FO2 established range to be just that; the maximum distance the area had observed Vertibirds operating out to. They couldn't confirm any farther because that's the longest trips they saw. A maximum effective range of 100 miles seems pretty impossible for the latest state-of-the-art fusion-powered VTOL aircraft in the U.S. Army's arsenal.

The only way the Enclave got them chemicals themselves in Fallout 2 to make the innoculation was from a massive supply chain from Vault City-->The Den-->New Reno and then on Vertibirds to Navarro-->Oil Rig.



Again, if they have the forethought to have bases all over the world why would they only have one hub of communications? Satilites can be used by more than one base surely.

The the way Enclave was supposed to be after Fallout 2 can be best summed us thusly:

"Shaken by the assassination of Vice-President Carlson, right-wing elements seize control of the Congress and set the New California Republic on the path to military rule. Eventually the survivors of the Enclave find a new home in the ranks of the NCR."

As far as I am concerned that means that the Enclave was so broken after Fallout 2 that if they had the chance to collapse into another organisation they would. Of course this is non-canon but the varialbe is the NCR not the Enclave, ie, the Enclave only didn't totally collapse because they had no where to go. Then in Van Buren there would be some pre-war history and a lost patrol; that is all.

Yes, they would have split up leadership. But, leadership of Enclave, and leadership of government are two different things are they not? Sure, there can be some political types scattered about, but like I said, they may not have the means to step up, the communication, the ideal local, whatever.

If bunker, vault, etc protected from nuclear war, if they remain inside it, they would have been safe from a virus. If they died though, and Enclave plan from rig was success... I don't think those Enclave on riig would of cared. If there is other leadership, they have just secured their supremacy. Stalin and Hitler did kill others in their own party ya know...this is not stuff that is unheard of. Didn't Autumn even have paranoia about Eden? Sure did.

I would be positive that there is other military leadership someplace else. Hence the Colonel and not General Autumn. When blabbing you propganda on radio General sounds a lot more official and powerful than Colonel. Unless of course, he can't be General because there is a General or two monitoring from someplace else. The powers behind the throne so to speak.

As far as other bases in game, we only been in two places. West and east. We know what happened west. Enclave out west would have no doubt been at Rig. I never denied that, and a lot of em died. But that leaves a lot of the country undiscovered, and the places I feel they would have gone to "globally", which would have been remote.

For all we know, Chicago outposts already existed, and when west coast Enclave moved east, they stopped their to ressuply and continue on. Why didn't Chicago Enclave go to Eden? Supply lines. They may have own seperate orders to remain where they are. Maybe there orders are to try and reestablish communication with other Enclave. Who knows, all speculation until we play in those locations.

The Enclave are pretty clearly established to have either a long-range communication network or amazing lower-ranking officers, as Lyons specifically noted they were unimpeded by the destruction of Raven Rock and the loss of Colonel Autumn.

My money's on communication network, personally; it would make sense for the U.S. government to squirrel itself away with the best resources possible, and an advanced radio/communications network would certainly be one of those.

They had ways to travel the globe pre-war. I never said it be easy to get back. But, I have to agree with what the one guy said about Vertibirds. That makes no sense to have 200 mile range.

Also, if no communication, if there were political leaders in other bases, how would they know rig destroyed, president dead, need new president. They wouldn't, so until they somehow made contact, they just do whatever their particular role was. We don't know.

To coordinate in capital wasteland they only would have needed short range com.

Long range com gonna depend on if sats were destroyed or not. Many could be destroyed, and no new sats are going up. I'm sure they have better com than most, but it still gonna be disabled compared to pre-war communication. That just common sense.

For example, if they have awesome long range com, guy who sending Ed-E west would have just notified Chicago he sending him there way, and to send him on to Navarro, and if great long range comm why u sending Ed-E to begin with as you would hear nothing from Navarro...unless there some underground secret base there.

Otherwise, gee we haven't heard a peep from Navarro in years, they must be dead. Or, they don't have long range com. If the former, you don't send Ed-E.

If they've got a attack satellite still in orbit, it's virtually guaranteed communication platforms would have survived; attack platforms would have been the primary target for any antisatellite measures when the balloon went up.

I agree that even the best communications network the Enclave can muster will pale in comparison to pre-War infrastructure, but it doesn't need to be big or advanced, just there.

Well, an attack platform would have defense systems, where communication sats may not(or not as advanced), cuz it saves money and it all about the benjamins.

If I was in charge of attack, I would actually target comm sats before I launched a single land nuke.

But I do agree compared to others in the wasteland they prolly have best communication, I just question their long range capabilities.

Personally, I would imagine that in the case of the Great War attack birds would have been the primary targets as all sides involved knew there wouldn't be much left to communicate with after the dust settled; priority #1 would be reducing the amount of incoming missiles by as much as possible.

I'd also think that any truly vital comms satellites would have defensive systems as well.

This is one of the things that really makes me yearn for some Fallout novels, we seriously need some in-depth established canon to go on.

Well, if you are doing the first strike, then I would attack comm sats in attemmpt to reduce my enemies effectiveness of counter attack and survival. Gonna try these tactics, but fact is, the realist would know it not gonna matter, world over.

But yeah, think we pretty much agree they have communication, and for after war world it good, but it obviously limited.

Well Tune it's not really that hard to figure out, Vertibirds in FO2 Used fuel, be it gas from the Oil Rig, or they have electric engines and ran on Fusion bats. Take a look at your car in FO 2. Same idea. Vertibirds have a range of 200 miles. That is established canon. You can also go on the Enclaves comm system, there is no such bases you guys keep going on about. Also for the Inoculation thing, so every base around the world is equipped with chemical labs and highly trained scientists and the raw chemicals to make it all? the Enclave in the oil rig spent years setting up and negotiating to get the raw chemicals they needed to make the curling 13 and cure chemicals.

the truth is the Enclave as they appear in FO3 are completely inconsistent with how they where left in FO2. You can't take what was left in FO2 and logically turn them into what they where in FO3 without making up crap they clearly didn't have in FO2. They escaped to the oil rig because it was hundreds of miles off the shore of the US so far away from the nukes China would send there way. Also why they secretly modified the oil rig to have a vault and advanced manufacturing capabilities. So after the bombs dropped no matter what plans they set up in the end all they had left was what was on the oil rig. So contrary to your assessment evl they're plan did work.

The only established base they had was Navarro, on the main land. they had several other government and military bases listed but the where offline or destroyed. New Vegas' remnants are a much more accurate portrayal of what happened after FO2. Since the only personal they would have left is the Navarro base personal. Not an Army, they could even reach the Capital wasteland with Vertibirds in the first place.

Well, we can't really argue specifics seeing as there is very little info about such things... but for a hypothetical EXAMPLE I will indulge you.

Lets Imagine Communications are up. They CAN talk to each other. The oil rig holds the government and the other bases hold Troops/civilians for manpower (once the world is cleansed). When the Oil Rig blows up, the leadership of the Enclave dies, and the Navarro remnants need a place to go. As we all know, vaults have a maximum capacity of people (dependent on the vault), and the Enclave used vault-tec to build their own bunkers (so they can only have a certian number of people in their bases and still remain self sufficient). They don't go to these other bases because they can't hold their numbers. There happens to be a empty base in Raven Rock and the President there orders them to it. So they go. That would mean there is no need for a "Craft".

But there is a problem: How could they get the inoculation around? Here is how: they get the Chemical Corps to breakdown the chemical building blocks of the inoculation and send the chemical formulas (that can be sent digitally) to these other bases and have THEM make the inoculation in their base. Then distribute it locally.

If The Oil Rig was the Central hub of the Enclave (which it seems to be considering the government was stationed there), and if it is at all like Vault 0 (that was made by the same people who made the Oil Rig's Vault, Vault-tec), then the loss of the Oil Rig would mean all loss of Communication for All of the Enclave.

Navarro wouldn't have the information because it was not needed there. It's not like the Enclave would send over every piece of information to Navarro... It was just a refueling stop point. Why would they put it there (considering they didn't foresee the destruction of the Rig)

And we do have in game evidence of these bases: ED-E's recordings.

Cheers,
Mk II

1st, Vault Tec would not Build Vaults outside of America. World hated America and America hated the world.

2nd, FEV was needed for the inoculation and the Enclave did not even have it, they had to re-open Meriposa to get a sample. Which means bases around the world would not have FEV.

3rd, There is no in game evidence to support the other bases theory. Everying points against it.

4th, New Vegas tells us that the Enclave had a desertion problem. Many gave up after the Rig and tried to start a new life in NCR. Chances are those stranded across the oceans or South America would also have a desertion problem.

5th. If you give up on the idea of the "craft." Then, even if above all logic there are Enclave across the oceans, they can't get back to America.

1) But the same contractors working under a different name could (Enclave shadow Government could more than likley arrange for that...)

2) I know. But everything is made out of chemical components, Even the inoculation at it's simplest form. That means the codes to make it can be distributed, and can be made by out of other materials that hold necessary ingredients. Like looking up how to make spaghetti sauce if you only have tomatoes and spices.

3) What? I already told you: ED-E's recordings. What statements from in-game canon point against it?

4) I would too if my whole family got blown up. But that was just Navarro Remnants. Others would still have a reason to keep going. (like their families, no Direct harm was done to them, etc)

5) They don't want to go back to America. Once the emerge, they want to recolonize EVERYTHING in the American way of life.

Cheers,
Mk II

Building large bases around the world would attact attention from enemies IE everyone and would be targeted.

You need the FEV virus to make an inoculation. Its nothing like making Spaghetti sause. You can't make a small pox vaccine, inoculation with the Rhino Virus. So you can't make one for FEV without FEV.

People lost communication, which could only mean your government is dead, why would you keep going?

ED-E was sent from DC to Navarro, this would mean they had no long range communication. Chicago base is the only base talked about and it makes more sense that when going East they set up Chigao base as a relay to make long range communication by Eye-Bot easier.

Fallout 3 made it pretty damn clear they are only interested in America. Fallout 2 they were interested in only building america. Killing everything around the world would have been a bonus.

Rig was built long before the Great War and it could have been targeted just not hit.

FEV is not just a Virus it took years to make and was top secret. If you could just mess around with it and bring it back with random crap in a lab. Then Enclave would not have had to go through the trouble of Digging up Meriposa.

Your Government is gone and chances are you are the most advanced people around, why not do something else besides keeping up "we are Enclave!" Over 200 years in another country, the people born there would not be American, would not haven seen it in their life time, their parents would not have even seen it or their grand parents for that matter. Fighting for America that your family has not seen in Generations.

More then one Relay station I can see but you would not have Thounsands at each one. Maybe ten or so. Also the Relay stations would mean Enclave don't have long range communication. If they can't send messages over 3000 miles they sure as hell can't send them across oceans. More then Chicago Outpost would mean even less men should have been in DC. Stations were most likely set up and manned if they are manned, after the Rig. No mention of them in Fallout 2. Anyways we are talking about bases outside of North America.

They have a hard time even taking back DC and yet you think they have eyes on rebuilding America and the World at the same time? :facepalm:

What exactly is the specific wording of the statement that they only have a range of 200 miles? It's literally impossible for something that has a fusion reactor to need to refuel every 200 miles (its effective range should be nearly unlimited), and even if they don't have a fusion reactor in FO2 (which I was pretty sure they did) there is literally no way any military would ever operate an aircraft with an effective range of one hundred miles. That's like World War One levels of aircraft range; it's utterly and completely impossible that the U.S. Army would have constructed such an aircraft.

Irregardless, FO3/FONV have Vertibirds as having fusion reactors, which means that if they did have gas engines in FO2 that has now been retconned.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/VB-02_Vertibird "Vertibird range was at least 175 miles distance between the oil rig and Navarro. Accessible were Klamath, Redding, Gecko, New Reno and Vault 13. According to the Shi, Vertibirds flew over San Francisco on the way from Navarro to the oil rig."

What this statement implies to me is that the maximum distance a Vertibird has flown as observed by people in the California area is 175 miles. They stop at 175 miles not because they need to refuel, but because Navarro is the only other place they are flying to.

This is in no way a concrete statement of Vertibird range; all it does is tell us that the Enclave flew Vertibirds between their two and only bases.

It is literally impossible for an aircraft, even a gas one, at the technological level a Vertibird is at to have an effective range of less than 100 miles.