Important: Please do not simply reply to this saying such a thing as "They have been nuked 2 times. Game Over. No more discussion!". Please read my post before response...

For quite a while now, I have been going through FO2, FO3, and New Vegas in hopes of understanding the Enclave and the possibility they might be still a viable faction in future FO games. I have made a thread about this months ago, and have furthered my understanding concerning the status of the Enclave and their condition. So please take a read of my post and tell me what you think...

---------------FO2: The End of the Enclave...---------------
We all know that in the Ending movie in FO2, the oil rig gets blown up along with the majority of the west coast Enclave. Seem dead right? Well, after some thinking and in game scavenging, I think to beg a differ:

In the Enclave Oil Rig, on the presidential level, the room right of the Presidential office contains a map (that I will refer to as Emap). On this map there are many, many little orange dots covering the land in the US. So what does that mean huh? Well, I have come to think it represent Enclave bases. Why? Because of the location of the Dots. Two dots can be seen in northern California (one in the ocean, Oil Rig, and one on land, Navarro), 1 can be seen around Washington DC (Raven Rock), and another dot can be found in Chicago (ill get to this later). I have pointed this out before, but have been told it COULD represent Poseidon oil locations. To this, I have 2 concessions:
1) What would be the point of having Poseidon Oil locations in what (appears to be) a strategy room (considering the oil rig was the LAST know source of oil, there would be no use visiting such locations)?

2) When listening to ED-E's recordings in NV, you hear a Enclave tech say "If you listening to this from one of our Enclave outposts in Chicago, give this unit whatever repairs it needs...". That means he is trying to SPEAK to a PERSON. It may sound obvious but I have heard some say that the Chicago outposts might be automated. Again, this location is on the FO2 EMap. Seeing as how every single dot seen in game or refereed to in game has Enclave personnel, I believe it is safe to assume most, if not all, do.

Another thing people like to say to discredit the map is to refer to the telecom officer that you can speak to after hacking in to PO oil refinery in FO2. He says "Hey, wait a minute... ur on the mainland" with a sound of amazement/ surprise. Well, considering that it has been 200 years since the great war, it would seem to me that most satellites would be out of juice (along with ways of communication) with other outposts would be near impossible (an exception o this is helios one, but that is only because YOU have to send power to it). This would make the main base of the oil rig very isolated and most likely be very surprised to see any other Enclave in their area. This can be further proven by the fact that the east coast is forced to send ED-E west with dialog recordings in him to explain what he is to any Enclave who might pick him up (like in Chicago), while if communication was good, they would simply have to say "wazzzzup".


---------------Fallout---------------Florida??
In FO3 BS, The enclave return to power in the DC area with Adam air force base and the "mobile crawler" as their main base of operations. The mobile Crawler draws many simulartites to NASA's mobile crawler (google it). This means 1 of 2 things:
A ) the Enclave has men stationed in Florida (where it is kept) that man/ use it, or

B ) The Enclave has enough manpower to build one.

If A: The Enclave must have stations in Florida able to man/uphold/use it. If not, it would have surely been overrun/scavenged and destroyed by now.

And if B: That would require 2 things to build such a massive project; men and materials. The men would have to be drawn from bases picked up along the way east from Navarro (the few remaining men from Navarro would be nowhere near enough to build one from scratch). The materials would also be extremely had pressed to find without some form of industrial capacity to produce them (remember, between FO2 and 3, there was a 20 year gap. Not enough time for a small group of remnants who, for most of this time, have been walking across the country to get to raven rock and then rebuild a whole mobile crawler on top of it).

---------------Respect Your Elders...---------------
Elder Lyons says the Enclave is still a massive threat following the destruction of the Mobile crawler in Broken Steel. That must mean they are still a force.


So, to conclude, I have made this:

---------------What we know then (From in-game)---------------
A ) Not all personnel moved east to go to raven rock (Outposts in Chicago, for example)
B ) There are a lot of other maned bases with Enclave soldiers occupying it (Again, Chicago outposts and the FO2 Emap)
C ) The Enclave still has industrial capacity to make new armor, new weapon types, and Vertibirds (FO3 Armor, Weapons, and vertibirds are produced by the Enclave)
D) Elder Lyons says the Enclave is still a massive threat following the destruction of the Mobile crawler in Broken Steel.


I am going to keep adding stuff. I'm tired of typing right now so I'm going to reserve the 1st response post as a continuation.

Cheers,
Mk II

---------------Reserved---------------

Enclave are dead in the West and yes I read your post. The Virus they were working on would have killed everyone not inoculated. If Enclave have/had contact with other locations around the world that makes them very powerful and yet they sat on their butts till 2241. Their could be Enclave in Chicago but I am hoping its just a small outpost.

Having bases around the world makes little sense. Yes there is that bit in the bible about the government and Enclave going around the world before the war but even :bowdown: Chris Avellone makes mistakes :sadvaultboy:

Why it makes no sense. World hated America so why would they let them build bases? America closed it's borders. Enclave are supposed to be super Pro-American based on Fallout 3 so why would they abandon America for foreign soil? How would they expect to contact one another? They did not even know about that space weapon in broken steel. Also the virus I mention earlier.

Do we really need to keep playing whack-a-mole with the Enclave?

The Chicago base most likely was manned when they were moving to DC. There is only the Rig and Navarro in Fallout 2.

We don't know Land Crawler comes from Florida. Enclave should not have the man power they had in Fallout 3. The Enclave were hunted down in the West by NCR and BoS only a small group left Navarro to DC.

Enclave in Fallout 3 make little sense and cause a number of plot holes in Fallout lore, having them back as a major power will just mess things up even more. Are there still Enclave out there? Yes, Chicago. Should they be powerful again? NO.

I'd guess the only Enclave base remaining of any significant size is in Chicago, and they will have to deal with a resurgent and powerful Midwestern chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel. That'd be an interesting setting for a Fallout game, and would allow the Enclave to be in the background, but that's the only way they could realistically work their way back into the games as even a minor power.

You just can't have your entire command structure, along with your headquarters/main base, be wiped out twice and still be in good shape as a military organization.

I do believe that Elder Lyons essentially cites the Enclave as being more or less routed after the destruction of the crawler, doesn't he?

Regardless, I wouldn't worry about a lack of Enclave equipment or remnants in subsequent Fallout games; they're a very popular faction and so will likely get in in one way or another, even if it's just the armor.

Ahhh Styles.... We meet again?

Yes, they where done distributing the inoculation by the time the Chosen one reached the Oil Rig. Distributing the inoculation would have been part of the process leading up to the release. It was never said that it was to be given only to citizens on the rig, but rather just said to be distributed (which would explain why it took so long to actually release).

The Enclave stayed in their bases because they where afraid of the radiation that caused mutation (and after hearing reports of the master and his FEV mutations, that as well). They stayed indoors until the all-clear was given.

And if the Enclave had all the manpower it did in FO3, that means there must be other sources to draw them from. They shouldn't have had sooo many men in FO3 if they where ONLY comprised of Navarro Remnants. They shouldn't have had all the new Armor they had, or the weapons, or the Vertibirds too then. But they did. That means something. Its in-game canon that they where strong and formidable only 20 years after FO2, its cannon that they have bases in chicago, and that their population seemed to have jumped when it shouldn't have (if comprised only of Navarro Remnants). Seeing as they don't recruit waste landers or vault dwellers, I see the only source for their population jump to be other Enclave reserves. Also, check my sig. Its from the Fallout Bible.



But also, then, take into consideration the other many locations of marked points on the FO2 Emap. These other locations could be just as big as the oil rig (but stocked with lower level Enclave members, instead of the President and other Gov. Officials). But I agree, a Enclave (in the back) with Faction ? Vs Midwest BoS would be fun to see.

Cheers,
Mk II

First they did not give out the innoculation to the people on the rig. They were still working on it. We can get a scientist to release the virus which kills the People. They don't have the means to travel around the world. I also updated my first responce: "Having bases around the world makes little sense. Yes there is that bit in the bible about the government and Enclave going around the world before the war but even :bowdown: Chris Avellone makes mistakes :sadvaultboy:

Why it makes no sense. World hated America so why would they let them build bases? America closed it's borders. Enclave are supposed to be super Pro-American based on Fallout 3 so why would they abandon America for foreign soil? How would they expect to contact one another? They did not even know about that space weapon in broken steel. Also the virus I mention earlier."

Fallout 3 tells us that Raven Rock was empty till the Remnants got there, having all that stuff there with so many men is one of the big plot holes. As for being afriad of Radiation, it was long gone by the time of Fallout 2161. We don't see them till 2241. Thats alot of time doing nothing.

It would make sense to have them around the world because the Enclave was not officially part of the USA gov. It was a shadow government that had the cash to buy what it needed. It would be hard to doubt the ability for them pre-war to gain access to remote locations around the globe and build them into nuke safe bunkers. They would use foreign soil because it was less likely to be nuked as hard and they planned to emerge and rebuild everything in the American way of life. Why not expand around the whole globe? and they DID know about the space weapon in Broken steel, It was THEIRS. And the Virus: I responded to it earlier. They would distribute it before release (meaning it was probably getting its way to these bases about the time the Chosen one was getting to the Oil Rig, however, not given to the citizens until immediately before release).

If the other bases were as big as the Oil Rig, the West Coast Enclave refugees wouldn't have retreated all the way to Raven Rock on the East Coast; they would have set up shop at a closer base.

The main thing that makes me believe they're running out of troops, though, is their simple size. The Enclave army was tiny to begin with (Fallout Bible apparently has their troop numbers at hundreds), even smaller than the BoS, and they've been taken to the cleaners not once but twice now. There just can't be that many Enclave members left alive.

I do hope that what you articulated (very well I might add) in your original post is true.

But we'll just have to see. While I recognize that the Enclave will likely never come back as a major faction again (and thats probably how it should be). Im just not fully ready to give up on their continued existance, if even a relatively small form. Not yet anyway. :foodndrink:



Fallout 3 states that they have fallen on "hard times". Whether that is true or not is something we will just have to see.

America closed it borders. Everyone hated America. Foreign soil is no safer then anywhere else in the world. They love America so damn much they would not create mini Americas in other nations. They would rebuild America. The Fallout bible is not canon and as I have pointed out, even the Author of the bible has made mistakes. The Enclave don't have the ability to travel around the world. If they did they could have taken back America and the world long before Fallout 2. With their wonder weapons of Fallout 3 including Optimus Prime and their unknown craft that lets them travel the world .

They were worried about mutation yes, not Radiation. Like I said Radiation was gone by Fallout. People mutated in their minds and now every generation was mutated. Fallout 3 again another plot hole, had radiation everywhere.

Reason they did nothing for so long was because they only had the Rig and Navarro, they did not have the numbers. Fallout 3 comes along and makes the Enclave super pro-American with endless supplies, manpower and super weapons coming out their butts, which means they could have taken America long ago.

Bring them back with more crap we see in Fallout 3 just ruins the lore/canon completely. I am not saying there are no Enclave. I am just saying they are not all over the world. They would not come back as a super powrful faction ever again. They are remnants now and should stay that way for canon sakes.

This, plus everything I have said.

And a few hundred troops on the West coast, yet they are able to come back with so many troops in FO3? That just proves my point more. They must have other reserves to draw men from.

They went that far east because the new President told them to. Its not because they decided to trek across the whole country just to find a abandoned base... It was a order.



Ima go to bed and respond to this later, but I do agree that they will not come back as a major faction. But as a BoS size faction (like in NV) I can imagine that. Only with a lot more bases scattered around the globe).

Cheers,
Mk II

From the way you talk about the Enclave having these bases, the Remnants would have known about them and would have had some type of craft to get to them. They would not keep all their craft on the Oil Rig. That's the logic you are using. Its Whack-A-Mole Logic. As in "They can't be gone because we can make stuff up to bring them back."

Edit: if other bases around the world were manned then someone form one of those bases would become the next president and not Eden.

lol I rewrote that after reading it to myself and realizing that...



Well, President Eden seemed to be the most Charismatic and Pro-American seeing as he programmed himself to be.

I am glad you noticed that. I must admit you came ready for this debate :foodndrink:

But that pretty much put the nail in the coffin with the "other bases around the world" ttheory.

read what I rewrote

I have come prepared haha :toughninja: lol

That does not a President make though.

President Eden is president for more specific reasons.

But doesn't it? Even today, we are not a meritocracy, but a government of charisma. Eden was thought to be human. Only Autumn knew he wasn't. He was the PERFECT candidate for president.

I have

"Well, President Eden seemed to be the most Charismatic and Pro-American seeing as he programmed himself to be."

Makes no sense. If Enclave went around the world they would have split up high-level people. Those High-level people would have passed their jobs down to their kids and so on. Rig blows up and someone else would have taken up the job. Eden only became president because the entire government was blown up. Again, bases around the world would mean the government was active in bunkers around the world like your sig quote from the bible.

The Government was stationed in the oil Rig. The citizens where around the world. Much like the ways Vaults where but no experimental programs. They had no contact with one-another, yet still are known to exist all across the US. I see it as a very good anology.

It is known IMPORTANT Enclave members went to the Oil Rig.

EDIT: Enuff for me tonight. Ima hit the sac. This Shall CONTINUE!

:foodndrink:

Then that goes back to the Virus. If they had no contact then how would they send the Innoculation for the Virus? You argued that they did have contact and they would have sent the innoculation around the world, now you're taking it back?

Number one thing I hear fom people that can't face the end of the Enclave "they would not put all their eggs in one basket." With the theory of the bases around the world, then they would have split the government up for protection just like the Fallout bible says. Truth is Enclave did put all their eggs in one basket at the Rig.

Thats why I say its wrong (your sig) because it makes no sense. This debate proves it.

I take back nothing. See, you don't need active communication with a group to send it something. All they would need to do is physically show up at the base (seeing as the Rig would have the information) and show them identification proving they are fellow enclave and inform them of the situation. Then they have the inoculation ready for use with a designated time to use it. The Enclave did put all their officials in one basket, but not all their citizens.

Cheers,
Mk II

Then they still would have known they were there. The renmants would have gone there. Why have bases around the world and not have communication with them? If they can go send them an innoculation and give updates then they can talk with one another. Did each base have its own government, with its own president or something? Someone would have to run it and to keep the government safe people more qualified then Eden then would be president.

Other Enclave Fans point out that Eden became president due to the COG or something. The Entire government was wiped out so therefore he was the only one left that can be president. The bible says they built bases around the world as to not to "put all their eggs in one basket." So why would they put all their government leaders in one basket?

The other bases theory does not hold water and the fallout bible is wrong. It has happened before, plus the games tell us they are gone as a major power and do not support world bases, theory.

Speaking of which...
Two John Henry Eden 2012 banners made by me (in paint; I put text over the existing enclave propaganda billboard). Get 'em, save 'em, and use them next year for laughs!

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb230/SwampLord450/edenposter3.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb230/SwampLord450/edenposter2.jpg

If anyone can tell me where I can get a larger version of that propaganda board to make a REALLY big Eden 2012 poster, and ideally a custom laptop sticker, (besides ingame screenshot) I'd be much obliged.

Also, my thoughts on Enclave troop numbers:
Let's be generous and give the Enclave a thousand troops even as of ~2241. Figure they lose 100-200 that were stationed on the Oil Rig, and another ~200 or so in the fall of Navarro. That leaves about 500 troops to make the journey to the Capital Wasteland (not everyone went there, as evidenced by the Remnants). Once they get there, they end up embroiled in a war with the Capital Wasteland BoS and Super Mutants; the Lyons BoS and Liberty Prime's assault on the Purifier probably kills another good hundred or so Enclave troopers, and the mop-up operations in Broken Steel take down another hundred. That leaves very few Enclave personnel remaining.