I'm not even going to bother. I'll just point out that strongly disagree, and leave it at that.

Well that's lame, unfortunate that you won't further the discussion, i was hoping that you'd come up with new arguments or at least other examples and information to refute my standpoint.

I'm more for BOS becasue they are less likely to murder and deliver a campaign of terror to meet their goals (are there any other examples of BOS nastiness other than The Pit? - I havent had the privaledge of playing the earlier FO games).

If I were an Enclave supporter it wouldn't be Eden because that appears self defeating to me, and I wouldn't feel too impresed to follow Autumn who readily took orders from a computer.... though I don't know for how long he did that before he took over. Autumn to me also comes across as a bloodthirsty control freak, kinda like a religious nutta trying to stamp his authority on the wastes. If Enclave had an inteligent leader that were able to go about achieving their goals without killing/violence then they may appeal more to me.

NuclearHolocaust, you say that it's justifiable to kill, say, 95% of the people in the wasteland, just to rebiuld America. That's fine if you're one of the surviving 5%, but if you're one of the 95, it's a different story. Would YOU care to take the chance?

Well, if it were my life at stake, of course i'd make sure i was healthy and pure as the members of the Enclave. I still confrim however, the need of annihilating wasteland mutation in order to rebuild a succesfull and welfaring civilization, yet of course i would fight back if i was among the ones to be terminated. But i reckon that i would be on the surviving side since i was raised in the vault, fed on healthy pure water and food and also my father, a well learned doctor, confimres my good health (during the quest future imperfect, starting with dad's statement of me being a perfectly healthy 16 year old boy). So i consider the chances of me being seen as a mutated lifeform by the Enclave fairly low.

I recall the NCR's war with the BoS, as a result of the borthershood's new leader Jeremy Maxson. Quote from vault wikia: "Even though the relationship between the NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel was never without some tensions, it got much worse when Jeremy Maxson became the leader of the Brotherhood. He favored a return to power by wresting all advanced tech from the hands of "lesser people" by any means necessary." I'd say total war is a kind of terror.

I don't wanna debate because I'm not smart enough, but I gotta say... get with the times, dude. The new pure IS the current population. The old pure's never going to exist again. Even if you killed 'em all, the background radiation would eventually wear down your 'pure strain' of human too!
Views like these seem to be all about going BACK, to pre-war era, but you can't GO back. Isn't it better all round to adapt?

That ís the viewpoint of most bastions in the wasteland, but it hasn't convinced me alright. Even if the Vault dwellers and Enclave members are not perfectly pure humans as those before the war, the definition of purity will have been replaced by the most healthy kin of humans left in the world. And still, it would be impossible to use the Enclave's technology to restore all genetic deformities in the wasteland to normal condition, rather than eradicating all mutation and, if it even is slightly mutated, restore the genetic structure of themselves and future generations by the means they have, which would require a much smaller and achievable effort, due to their much less contaminated DNA as well as their lower numbers, compared to the still quite massive population of the wasteland, not to mention the rest of the world. The Enclave is strong and well equiped, yet not powerfull enough to recover each individual mutated creature in post-apocalyptia, but does yield the means to destroy all deformity by total and ruthless annihilation, preserving their own genetically superior kind and improving it with the technology they have, made possible by the relatively small number of members and their extremely low degree, if any, of personnel mutation. That's the alternative to incorporating all misplaced creatures that populate the earth into crappy half organized scraps of developed "society", merely hoping to ever recover from this doomed fait. Seems clear to me who offers the better deal.

The real questions is: Wwhich of the factions have the ability to build a civilization?

The short answer is: Neither. Allow me to elaborate a bit.

The Brotherhood of Steel is an isolationist group of technology hoarders. They try to gather and conserve technology, but without building an infrastructure of a certain size they are unlikely to be able to maintain the old technology, much less able to make new technology. The strategy of Lyon in DC underscores the basic impotence of the Brotherhood: While they may be able to clear out the super mutants from DC, who is going to make sure the super mutants stay away for good? They can only do that if someone is ready to move in. And who is that going to be? This is why the Brotherhood of Steel are going to fail: They are hoarders, not builders.

The Enclave is the remnants of the US government that allowed the nuclear war to happen. Furthermore, it has had a score of crazy leaders, trying to commit genocide against the sentient beings of the Wasteland - including the human race itself. Everything we have seen of the Enclave suggests that its strategy is to wipe out everything - again - and build a dictatorship under the leadership of the "elected" President. And even if they succeed in exterminating everyone except themselves ... what are they going to eat? Most plants and animals are mutated as well. And even if they solve that problem, how are they going to make sure that no one moves in while they repopulate the planet? Their numbers can't be big.

For both factions, the leadership is part of the problem, not the solution. If either group is going to play a role in making the wasteland a better place, a revolution from the rank and file members is needed. Given the crazy plans of the Enclave, I would say that it is the Enclave that needs a revolution the most. But both factions need to change, to adapt to the post-nuclear wasteland.

I already offered a solution to the Enclave's food problem after global genocide:

I recall that the killer FEV affects only humanoids.


Also, remember that the Enclave is not using the FEV since Eden is alone with the plan. Colonel Autumn is really in charge, and he has the decision whether or not to use the virus. Furthermore, he strongly opposed the idea, and he is in control of the military. So had he won, he would have completed his takeover in the Enclave and used the purifier to help and protect the Wastelanders (although Ghouls would be exterminated).

That is quite a leap of faith there. Given the track record of the Enclave leaders, I'm not sure that his definition of "help and protect the Wastelanders" would be particularly close to the Wastelanders definition. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that they have the (wo)manpower to do so, unless they allied themselves with the locals (such as NCR), shared their technology and accepted that they do not have a divine right to rule North America. I don't see them do either unless the rank and file sweeps the old leadership away.

I side with either group when the situation or outcome from doing so suits my interests.

I can't agree with Eden's proposition of genocide just for philosophical reasons. Purity is a concept of the mind. In actual fact there is no such thing. Everything is in a constant state of change and transformation. The only way to conceive of purity is to take a mental 'snap-shot' of a thing and consider that the ideal at all times, effectively making time lose its meaning. I don't think anything can or does exist in that state (2nd law of thermodynamics asserts this I think) and therefore Eden's plan is meaningless by the premises it sets out. Not the the kind of goal in life I want to have.

However I'm not really a massive Brotherhood fan either, Lyons Brotherhood that is. I'm of a similar opinion as the Outcasts, but not quite the same. I don't think Lyons has abandoned his values, or rather the values of the Brotherhood, but he has made the imposition of those values his goal, where as before they were mere guidelines to follow inorder to shape and secure success in whatever goals your life demands. Technology seen by the Outcasts to facilitate and aid many aspects of survival and sees the worth in anyone who seeks to find technological devices to help sustain their life. Lyons to me is kind of saying to everyone (that he deems worthy to live) "No, don't save yourself, we're going to do it for you", which I see as a 'mommy coddling' form of fascism. Insidiously evil because it disguises itself as being noble, but essentially they still view themselves as all powerful.

No, that's philosophical purity, eden's purity is evolutionary, it strives for the return of genetically pure humans, which requires the termination of all mutated life. And with the technology the Enclave yields they might even exceed pre-war genetic condition and become ever stronger. But the fact remains that all deformities in the wasteland are clearly far gone from the evolutionary path to their apex, reached in the distand past, and which will without intervention overwehlm and destroy the Enclave, mankinds last hope for recovery, merely to commit su?cide itself, in the pursuit of their degenerate conditions and offspring.

The cure in the Pitt would be killed my the FEV wouldn't it? As for the PC in Fallout 3, you are not a pure strain of human, Eden doesn't know that or if he does he is trying to convince you that you are so you'll follow through with his plan.

Lyon's BoS is effective in it's own way, they managed to stop the super mutants from taking over and protect the people and provide water to all the settlements. In that he is a successful person taking off the strain of these settlements, that also might lead to a unification of the Capital Wasteland itself and to start rebuilding society. The pure water could also stimulate plant growth.

The Outcasts and the rest of the BoS will never be able to give a future to the people, they are obsessed with picking up parts from a dead society. They don't seem too concerned with trying to find a way to manufacture their own stuff. On side note I love their power armor, the outcast power armor I mean.

The Enclave will never be able to rebuild, they attack wastelanders indiscriminately as seen when a caravaner walked by or when they interrogate Amata. They are a dictatorship that just seems to be built on genocide. While I'd like to see a less radical faction of the Enclave, because that is who I'd pin my hopes on rebuilding the world.

There is only one kind of 'purity', it can not be split into degrees or considered spectral. It may be a term used in evolutionary science, but it has redefined parameters that in actuality don't meet the criteria for purity. But unless it is the philosophical definition used to support the goals of Eden then his goals seem to lose all real meaning. What Eden is perceiving to be pure is really just a genetic 'snap-shot'. "Pure" under these conditions is really just an organism that has undergone many minute mutations from the previous generation, but is still congruent with the concept of 'humanness'. Ontologically it doesn't exist with any fixed reprsentation, so all you have is simulacra of humanity. Beyond the mind it doesn't actually exist with set parameters. So long as there is no huge jumps we can delude ourselves that nothing is changing, because we are all changing together, in exactly the same ways. Call it pure, but it isn't.

When it comes to progress between the two factions; Enclave are undoubtedly in the lead. Brotherhood may have saved an odd wastelander here or there, but it's meaningless in the big picture.
And if it wasn't for LW, Brotherhood would be a complete failure. I don't think I have to give examples, their numerous, and long, it would be another wall-of-text no one would read. :shrug:

I think the Enclave are more focused on restoring the world to the way it was before...and the Brotherhood is focused on advancing the technology of society even further.

At the heart of both of these "factions" they are both striving for similar goals, the only real difference is that the Brotherhood will not harm civilians and the Enclave has no problem murdering a bunch of people to get what they want.

I think there are minorities in each faction that would work towards the common good. Hell, not all Enclave personnel want to kill everyone that's not one of them. I've come across a random event where they tried to surrender to the Outcasts ( didn't work out well). All they would need is someone to bring together all the splinter groups (and a GECK those things are handy) and use the combined knowledge, tech, and skills to restore the wastes.







And kill ghouls

I understand what you're saying, but what i meant was that eden's definition of purity is based on the genetic structure that constritutes healthy humans, now this indeed does not have any set contours, but clearly it is elavated above all mutated life in the wastes. One can not say that pre-war human gene's are thé definition of "purity", but one cán say that their degree of purity exceeds that of all wasteland mutation. So, actually, your indeed correct argument does not in any way change eden's goal nor does it effect the rationality or efficiency of his methods. Once the Enclave rules and has restored society and civilization over the desintegrated remains of all dead mutated life, than surely there will still be no set definition of purity, but it will neverthelss be absolutely certain that the Enclave is genetically superior to ghouls, rad roaches, rad scorpions and so on. The Super mutants may be physically stronger, but clearly history has showed that mental superiority entwined with human strength is able to conquer the food chain. And after complete termination of all deformed life, the Enclave, as i have suggested before, can still go on improving their own gene's, possibly exceeding pre-war levels and maybe even succeeding at implementing the Super mutant′s extreme physical properties into their own bodies without losing brain function, who know's? But all we can be certain of is that the Enclave and most control-vault dwellers are way more pure than the misplaced creatures in Post-apocalyptia.

Autumn sacrificed the faction's unity to make sure he's the one who controls the purifier. If he didn't care whether the Wastelanders die or not, he would not have done what he did. I assume his resistance to the genocide is the reason he ordered your execution only after Eden informed everybody about him inviting the LW in his office.

But true, the Enclave might not have the manpower to run the whole show any more. Nevertheless they are definitely the best choice if you pick a Capital Wasteland faction. The Brotherhood controls only two rings of the Pentagon and still lack the manpower to protect it. Talon Company is only interested in money. Super Mutants want everyone dead or FEV'd. Dave, Rivet City, Vault 101 and others are just too small to do anything besides run their own homes.

i think the bos and the enclave should team up get over there different views and go kill every last supermutant, in DC and then kill all the slavers and raiders , than just start rebuilding, make a goverment and whatnot

And here we come to the core of the problem. None of the factions of the Capital Wasteland are able to do anything on their own. For the Brotherhood and Enclave (aside from their ideology), the main weakness is lack of numbers. For the city factions, the main problem is lack of military might. A long term alliance between these factions is what is needed to build a new civilization from the ashes of the old. I'm not convinced that the Brotherhood or the Enclave are needed, as NCR managed to build a republic without their help.

An interesting question is if Raiders are to far gone to become be reintegrated into the human population - some clues suggest that it is possible to talk and negotiate with them. If the raiders are something like bandits and pirates in the real world, many have been pushed to the life of the raider due to hunger, proverty, oppresion or circumstance, and may want to return to a reasonable life. Another question is to what extent it is possible to negotiate some sort of treaty with the super mutants. Broken Hills from Fallout 2 suggests that it could be possible to come to some sort of understanding with at least some of them.

ENCLAVE ALL THE WAY!

Brotherhood is better than the Enclave. They dominate anything with their advanced tech.