I started a topic earlier about ghouls, which most of you probably read and posted on, and it was fun until things started getting mixed with real life, insults flew as a non-stop barrage towards Ghoul Lovers, And Ghoul Haters. Please Consider Other Peoples Feelings, and try not to get to caught up in the moment. Please be nicer on this Topic.

On Topic:
The Enclave and The Brotherhood. Two warring sides with some badas* power armor. They both have different views of the wasteland and how we can rebuild the great Capital Wasteland. Do you think the Enclaves FEV virus is a great or terrible thing? What about the Brotherhood? What do you think of there impact on the wastes. Im sure we will all be happy to here your opinions, so start Discussing.


( Remember Just a Game :flamethrower: )

Okay, this can only lead to another battle. I'll try and remain civil and on-topic throughout.

Personally, I feel they're both right, but in their own ways. They both want to rebuild the Wastelands, just in different ways.

-Brotherhood of Steel as we know it actually isn't the real BoS, the real one is back west, their goal is to scrounge a bunch of tech. Elder Lyons BoS is about saving the DC Wasteland.

-Enclave are now divided into two, Eden's Enclave, and Autumns Enclave.

-Eden's Enclave wants to wipe out humanity as we know it and start a-fresh, with pure-bred humans.

-Autumns Enclave wants to round up all the Wastelanders, and somehow make them accept Enclave as the true, uncontested leaders of the Wastes, and want to take over the Purifier to do so.

I personally think Eden's Enclave is in the right. It may not be the most peaceful way, it may not be the easiest either, but it is the surest way to make sure America is rebuilt properly, in my humble opinion. Out of all factions here, this is the one I would be allied with.

As long as you keep it on game basis and choose your words carefully, Im sure that pointing out Certain things about the other Enclave And Brotherhood and trying to explain your way of viewing, it should not get to out of hand.

Personally, I would not side with either, But thats my choice. I perfer Talon Company as my personal army.

Firstly, starting another topic when a similar one has been closed is not permitted. However, as I have nothing to do for the next few hours I will leave this open as long as you all remember that whether you side with the Enclave or the Brotherhood - the moderators always win in the end.

I find the Enclave to be horrible and the BoS don't seem to really accomplish anything. (I mean this in the least hostile way possible.)

Well i think Eden's way of destroying everything and having just "pure-bred" humans is very difficult cause is there such a thing as "pure-bred" anymore?

Personally i would'nt side with any of them as IMO i don't think the wastland could go back to its former glory, it would be the hardest task and would need Enclave and BoS to team together to get the job done, lose the violence and get a government started and put law and order into works and maybe, just maybe this could happen?

my 2 cents

i side with non of them all you need to fix the wast is

you, your dad, oasis, and a small group of fighters

I'll copy/paste my argument from a thread about the Enclave's plan that was posted in the Fallout Series forum.

A quote from your conversation with Eden:
LW: Won't this kill pretty much everyone in the Wasteland?
Eden: Anyone or anything that has been exposed to the effects of mutation. You'll likely be immune, due to your upbringing in the vault...He goes to say that this will also kill everyone you became 'sympathetic' to in your travels.

Now note, not harmful mutations, mutations. Because they have lived two centuries in a radiation-basked desert, this is, essentially, all human beings who were born outside of a vault (including the Lone Wanderer) or the Enclave. In fact, this could INCLUDE some members of the Enclave if they weren't all born under the right conditions. 'Mutations' like a sixth toe are common, but not deadly, annomolies. This leaves a very small surviving population, not enough to actually replace the population lost and not have genetic problems, considering Vault 101 is the only vault with a viable surviving population, and the Overseer predicts genetic breakdown in 1-2 generations. It doesn't seem 'good' for the Enclave to kill the non-Feral ghouls simply because they have had severely bad luck. Not all ghouls eventually turn Feral, Carol has existed as a ghoul since the weeks just after the Great War. They won't reproduce to spread their severe brand of mutation, why kill needlessly? As shown in Broken Steel, the death is quite painful. It won't end the stream of Ghouls anyway, there is still lots of radiation. It'll just slaughter, although deformed, fully conscious and intelligent humans.

It also kills all irradiated creatures. Now, it may seem great to kill the mutant animals, but the problem is the non-mutant animals will never come back. All brahmin, mole rats, and even creatures that don't seem mutated like dogs and squirrels (because they are exposed to the outside air) would be dead. This eliminates all supplies of meat, and will probably kill the irradiated plants like Mutfruit too. Sure everyone could eat the vegetables that Li is making in Rivet City...but everyone who knew about her hydroponics work would be dead. Eden's scientists wouldn't be able to figure it out, they can't even figure out how to bypass a simple keypad. This leaves no food for very few people, nothing but whatever pre-war scavenge is left. There seems to be a lot of it, but probably only enough for another generation or so, and a lot of it is in very dangerous areas.

As for Super Mutants, the Lone Wanderer was able to discover their source in Vault 87, with this information the Brotherhood of Steel would be able to defeat them anyways. We don't even know if Super Mutants need much water, if any. We know they're immune to all diseases (which for all we know could INCLUDE Eden's modified FEV) and death by aging, who's to say they aren't immune to dehydration. Eden's new FEV destroys mutated creatures, but the Super Mutants have far more than regular radiation-caused mutations, they have a new DNA structure that never existed in the natural world. Where's the evidence this virus would be able to target that?

If Eden's plan is carried out, it may eliminate mutated genes from the genetic stock, but in doing so he destroys Wasteland's population, their scientific progress, and their food supply. Also, because the radiation won't actually be all gone, the 'new' wasteland denizes will become 'exposed to mutation' soon enough, and the FEV will still be there to kill them too, thus in the long term Eden has accomplished nothing but total annihilation. Even Autumn, who despite coldly killing one of the Project Purity scientists, still has the humanity to know that eliminating the Capital Wasteland with FEV is not the intelligent decision. However, Autumn would still have the Wasteland ruled under iron-fist dictatorship, wiping out anyone who won't subjugate to them.

Therefore, I support the Brotherhood, the side that isn't pro-genocide. The person who started the thread I originally posted in wanted to have a 'debate' about it, but he never responded. Maybe we'll have actual discussion here.

You've pretty much summed it up.


Brotherhood.

Their armor is cooler looking ;D

The Enclave want′s to rid all mutations from the planet and restore the United States of America to it's former glory, nothing wrong with that in my opinion. The FEV is radical, but secure, the virus qualifies for absolute certainty of result. After it has been released, humanity, and the the world, will be able to achieve supremation above it's surroundings again and rebuild it's very own existence, elevated from the barbaric place of wild nature and chaos. Of course it is not unreasonable to question the Enclave's moral justification, but in the end they're doing more than the Brotherhood, the Enclave is conducting massive scientific research and develops new technologies, and with their plan of eradicating all mutation they will not only annhialate every mutated wastelander, but also all ghouls, super mutants, rad scorpions, vicious dogs, rad roadches and every other abomination out there. As i said it isn't the most perfect occasion to have a social debate about the ethical brilliance of their actions, but it would become undoable to only target those who are most highly mutated in favor of relatively less exposed lifeforms. It would be like trying to destroy a virus, but keeping those who are less contaminated alive, just so that they might survive it, with the high change of renewed spread of the disease and inherent deformations. The Enclave might not be the perfect measure, but surely the most secure one, and when their plans succeed it will be certain that no mutation is left outthere, and the road to national recovery would finally rest assured. And you must remember, it is not a wellfaring country, these factions exist in a NUCLEAR wasteland, there ís no soceity, law or order. Everyone is trying to get by from day to day, and those who ended up more fortunate, prominently the Enclave, are striving to rebuild an entire nation, not exactly the time to worry about the ethical excellence of their plans. As for the purity of mankind, with almost all healthy life gone, and the bigger part of mankind consumed by mutation, radical measures are the ónly method to destroy every last trace of deformity in the human gene. Would it no be for the FEV, the human race would have to travel it's journey anew through the endless aging of evolution and foster the incipit dream of recovery somewhere in the unreachable heights of future era. There is no room in the wasteland for doomed and aimless socialism towards beings that once were humans, but no longer have the worth of being recognized as such. It is harsh indeed, but if history had not known hard and decisive action, civilization would not have existed and human advancement would not have thrived. Of course, this is all hypothetical, it's merely my opinion about the Enclave. I haven't read the other topic since i wasn't around lately, but appearently something went wrong in the dicussion. I do not wish to provoke any kind of such heated debate, this is merely how i think matters should be handled in the situation of Fallout 3.

I do not feel my opinion is needed here, as I believe a fair few people know it well enough, and I do not want to get involved in some tasteless argument.

But I will say one thing: what have Lyons' BoS achieved? Nothing. Yes, yes, they've saved a few useless wastelanders, but that's nothing even on a small scale. They have failed rooting out the super mutants, and indeed they have been failing for a long time, but they won't change.. they won't try anything different. Elder Lyons has been too busy chasing that white whale of his, and has never accomplished anything as a leader.

You don't want to debate morality, so let's talk about practicality. What would the [very very few] survivors eat? All mutated animals are dead, and the plants will be too. This leaves nothing but whatever pre-war scavenged food is left. There's no way in hell that'll last in the long run. Since Li and her hydroponics staff are 'mutants' all her work on making non-mutated vegetation will be lost.

What will their children drink? It gets rid of mutations but not radiation, soon everyone in a generation or two will be 'mutated' again and die when they drink the water.

The FEV eradicates super mutants prefectly well, it was especially designed for that purpose. Apart from that, the Enclave is a massive organization with tons and tons of military equipment, research applicances, labs, and installations, through which they develop new technologies, and, by the looks of their countless conservation tanks, scattered throughout their bases, preserve pure and normal lifeforms, which could be used to feed the Enclave's army and repopulate the Wasteland. By the way, the overseeers prediction of total genetic breakdown within two generations is to my knwoledge impossible in the light of Vault 101's current genetic purity. The inhabitants of the vault seem perfectly healthy humans, capable of fertile reproduction. I read that predictions in our own world forsee severe genetic deformation of the human race within ten generations, preceeded by steady decline in physical and mental condition, due to our own selfdestructive strive to preserve blinds, deafs, and the other disabled, by offering medical aid that allows them to live and reproduce, slowly but surely degenerating the condition of our genetic structure.

They're both as bad/good as each other. Both want to rebuild the wasteland and preserve the America of the future, both their methods are epic fail.
Personally, I admire the Outcasts. At least they admit to having empty cups of care where wastelanders are concerned - they're almost a totally different species. They have a job to do, and they do it. It's a humble job, really. Collecting things that have wires. That's a simple goal. My favourite kind.

Side note: I can't believe I missed that ghoul thread. No, not because I didn't get to post, what I mean is I can't believe my luck! I do NOT wanna be involved with that can of worms! For this reason, I will not mention either side's actions towards ghouls. That's the last thing we need, right? ^^"

The preserved species are meant for research, they're still clearly mutated animals. See http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Enclave_Field_Research_Terminals

It is not specifically expressed in the game, but i imagine the Enclave would be smart enough to preserve healthy breads of animals to feed on. Also, they could use the cure found in the Pitt, to shield themselves against radiation and regenerate earth's biosphere. Also, in combination with the G.E.C.K and the technology the Enclave has developed and salvaged itself, it should be very well possible to achieve their goal of total erdication of all mutated life and the recovery of human and animal genetic purity.

Regardless of President Eden's "noble" intention, their chosen method of accomplishing it involves genocide, the killing of innocent and helpless men, women, and children on a horrifically vast scale. This cannot be justified by any sane individual. Eden's Karma Score: -1,000+

Colonel Autumn might not condone absolutely indiscriminate mass-slaughter, but he is still willing to unhesitatingly murder the innocent (like Janice Kaplinski) to accomplish his ends, which are to establish absolute dominion over the wasteland. Yes, he might rebuild society, but it will be unrecognizable as the free America that a lot of us enjoy today. Autumn's Karma Score: -700

The Brotherhood Outcasts, for all their apparent uncaring attitude, respect the rights of those not like them to live their lives. While they demand that I surrender their own power armor to them without compensation, they respect my right to retain any other tech that I have, even if it's something they would normally want, and they compensate me for whatever tech I give them. Their ultimate goal, the rebuilding of society, is a noble one. They might not help people, but they don't remorselessly annihilate them (like Eden) or dominate them through violence (like Autumn). Casden's Karma Score: +400

The Brotherhood of Steel, whatever Casden and his ilk might say about them, have the noble intention of helping those who need help and driving the super mutant scourge from the wasteland, and many have sacrificed their lives to do so. When Project Purity is activated, they don't see it as a means for profit, or control, but respect James's original vision: fresh clean water for everyone. Lyons' Karma Score: +1,000

As a die hard high-karma type myself, it is plain who I side with the most, and who I feel needs to be deleted once and for all.

If the Enclave knew anything about the Pitt they would've taken the cure for themselves already.

Enclave Outcasts!

Or whatever the noncrazy branch is called

This is a highly volatile idea. Enclave Outcasts. Those in the Enclave that believe in neither Eden, nor Autumn...

Ofcourse they'd die out pretty soon, considering Enclave soldiers are dependent on the structure and system the Enclave has to offer..

But the idea has alot of potential...

Dont like the enclave but dont mind the brotherhood.

Eden's genocide is a necessary one, were it not for his determination to eradicate all mutated life, the wasteland would never recover to the former glory that once was the United States. As i said, it is undoable to try and retain all half dead slightly lesser mutated lifeforms that didn't happen to be totally hostile and lifethreatening, but still cary massive deformities which they would inevitably propagate throughout future reproduction, thus spreading renewed disease and mutation. The BoS is nót noble, they are only trying to scavenge mostly worthless ancient technology, thereby ruthlessly killing anyone who stands in their way, perfectly demonstrated by their acting in the Pitt. This was , by the way, even more outrageously articulated by their absolute disinterest in the G.E.C.K. which they knew was present in Vault 87, but didn't even try to attain any way other than through the lethally irradiated main entreance of the installation, a failed expedition after which they just gave up. As for the outcasts, they might be more "ethical" but they have, just like the BoS, not even the smallest degree of power required to conduct an operation as massive as the reconstruction of society and civilization. Only the Enclave can return the Nuclear wasteland to a welfaring society, they have the necessary military installations and equipment, technology, research facilities and manpower to take on such a task, while in combination with their apparatus, the G.E.C.K. and the pitt's cure, would guarantee succes. As for the Enclave's awearness of the cure's existence, i'd happily tell them. And actually i think, with their equipment entwined with the G.E.C.K., they'd probably produce such a cure somewhere in the near future anyway, it would merely take them longer than procuring the existing medicine from the pitt right away. So, again, i think the Enclave is still the best method to rebuild America.

The genocide was Richardson's idea actually, Eden was just parroting him. For the most part the Enclave's decision to commit genocide on a global scale was made out of fear and ignorance; they don't actually understand anything about the wasteland, how could they? They spent over 150 years sealed away in their oil rig off the coast of California, and when they emerged from the rig and saw the mutations they just decided to find a way to wipe everyone out. After they were defeated by the Chosen One and fled to the Capital Wasteland they spent another several decades sealed away in Raven Rock before trying to commit a similar atrocity.



The New California Republic has been doing a much better job than the Enclave without having to resort to global genocide. The difference between the two groups is that the NCR built itself up from nothing following the war, and they've adapted to the new world. The Enclave is a remnant of the old world that feels entitled to absolute power because they happen to be the descendants of the politicians who helped cause the Great War in the first place. They're not willing to adapt to their new environment, so they feel that this gives them justification to wipe out everything and everyone in the world who is not a member of their very small, very selective group. They've got a lot of gall I'll give them that, but they're hardly the best hope for the wasteland when there is a much better example of a post-war government already in the setting.

I think most people know my views. But in short: Colonel Autumn has the right way. The Brotherhood is a mere illusion of its big promises.

The Enclave is at the edge of their supremation, all the pieces are coming together during the events of Fallout 3, as i said, once they have eradicated all mutated life, their superior techology combined with what they have salvaged from the capital wasteland and the pitt will deliver them the keys to victory. The NCR is nothing but a complete faillure, sure they have build the largest standing society in the wasteland, but has it achieved it's goal? Is it the rising beacon of recovering civilization? No, and as things appear now, they won't be in the near or distant future either. If the NCR ever wishes to rebuild civilization, than it will at one point have to dismiss all mutated life from it's military ranks as well as the society itself. Otherwise it will just remain the same dusty pisshole it is now. The Enclave posseses incredible military equipment and employs hundreds of scientists, all working towards their common goal. If they do not annihilate all deformities from the human gene, than a succesfull restoration of pre-war america will be a futile endeavour. The NCR is a su?cidal attempt to contruct a working society of all mutated life, which will simply never return to the civilized world that once was the United States of America. It will merely drag on to eventually come into final selfdestructive conflict with it's schizofrenic nature and demise. The Enclave now holds all the cards and at the end of Fallout 3 have acquired the ability to achieve their goal. Absolute annihilation of all misplaced lifeforms is the only quick and secure guarantee for certain recovery. When the Enclave's plans are performed, the earth will be able to rebuild and mankind and civilization will finally thrive in it's purest form, most likely even more succesfull than ever before. The NCR, if it would even last that long, can only achieve this through unimaginable lengths of time, with not even a scrap of certainty for future succes. So clearly, it is the Enclave that prevails with total annihilation of all genetic deformities and guaranteed recovery in unprecedented purity, rather than the NCR with it's despicable pluriform branch of "society' which merely assembles all mutated species of the wasteland as succesfull as a cook does a rocket-engine.