"2077 --- March --- Prepared for a nuclear or biological attack from China, the president and the Enclave retreats to remote sections around the globe and make contingency plans for continuing the war."

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Bible_0

Near the bottom of the page. Good news for us Enclave Fans. The oil rig was not the only HQ. Neither was Raven rock. They are stationed around the world.

I knew that world map in the oil rig represented Enclave bases...

EDIT: Same for Fallout Bible 3 (latest update with a timeline)

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From the old Thread:








I Agree that the Enclave should not make a major (if any) appearance in FO:NV. What I am trying to argue is that The Enclave is not destroyed as a faction. They where beaten on the West Coast oil rig (And styles, from what I understand, Navarro holds the most advanced gear in the wastes. It has a whole bunch of soldiers, considering how many times you run into patrols trying to get to Navarro and the men actually in the base, and Vertibirds+Base defenses that could hold off almost any attack from the Brotherhood, Shi, or NCR. Otherwise what would have been holding these factions back before, considering they don't know about the oil rig.) And the Enclave moving east does not mean that the West coast Enclave would loose all their leadership. Col. Autum was probably just one of the "higher ups" the Enclave had at their disposal.

(also, the NCR and BOS would be somewhat weak at this point, They just fought a war against eachother where both sides had A LOT of losses. Moral and Men would be hard to come by for a attack on a group stronger than the BoS tech wise)

Another factor to take into regard is the fact that the Enclave could have had multiple bases. In FO2, if you are at the oil rig, on the same level as the president, the room right of the presidential office there is a map of the world. On that map there are 2 dots in California, 1 on the East Coast near DC, and many more scattered round the USA. I dont think they represent the Vaults, because there is only 1 on the East Coast near DC (while there are many vaults in FO3). If you where to look at them as Enclave bases, it would make out perfectly. 2 in Cali (Oil Rig and Navarro) and 1 on the East Coast (Raven Rock). It would not make much since either, having vault experiments on a map where you make you major strategic decisions. It would be more logical to have that information in a lab or observation terminal.

ANOTHER question to raise is: If they where sooo weak after FO2, how did they manage to create that mobile crawler + get hold of all those Vertibirds that we see flying out of RR after it is blown up? They either are not as weak as we think at Navarro or they had more bases scattered through the former nation. They even managed to create new and better Power Armor (meaning they have factories somewhere). Otherwise, it would be near impossible for them to get that equipment and manage a trek across the U.S.. It is even said that the Oil rig was only the HQ of the Enclave. That does not mean it is the only major base.

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EDIT: Found another good bit from the Fallout wiki:


http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Enclave (under "origins")

Cheers,
Mk II

YES!!! I knew my favorite faction was not dead!

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Could this not have gone in your other enclave thread?

Yeah, I just PM'ed a admin to ask him to close the old thread.

Fairplay.

Regardless of the possibility of the Enclaves prolonged existence, id still much rather they fade into obscurity and we never hear from them again.

So thats what it would boils down to in future fallout games. I'm certain that I'm not alone when I say that I would love to see the Enclave in FO4 or 5, just as there are those that, like you, would oppose it.

So, seeing as the Enclave would not be destroyed (or even close to it with all the in tact bases they have after FO3) it would be perfectly cannon to have them in game. Its just a question of if people want them in. Personally I want to see them in the future of fallout games. Not as the main enemy, but as a somewhat powerful group. Close to what the BoS was in FO1, but without the ability to join them, more elusive and openly hostile to all "muties".




Yesssssir

Cheers,
Mk II

I don't know where you got that quote from.

I found this: "Come 2077, with total nuclear war rapidly arriving at America's doorstep, the President of the United States and a number of other United States government officials left their posts to take refuge in a number of secret locations around the world. Among them was the Poseidon oil rig. Here, the President himself set up a secret base from which the USA could continue to exist and wage war on China, with the eventual goal of retaking the continental United States."

Does not say Enclave it just says President of the United States and a number of other United States government officials. Enclave could be with them but to me it speaks more of rats jumping ship. Kinda like the man from WWZ that came up with Phalanx and ends up in Antarctica. Also the government was moving to safe places to continue the war with China. Most when to the Rig, that's where the president goes. If you include Vault Zero and I do many others went there.

Look under the "Timeline repair: Second strike"

Its March, 2077. Its near the bottom of the page.

Your doing a different quote that seems to be talking only about the president and excludes mention of of the Enclave.

Cheers,
Mk II

I see it now. From the games the bulk of the Enclave went to the rig. We don't know the numbers that did not. It could have been just a handful of people going to remote bases or just bunkers we don't know. Easy thing to do would be to say that only few went outside the nation and they were lost during the war. Other secret bases the Enclave was to have, those were only manned by small numbers. Having bases all around the world seems to go against canon. America closed it's borders with other nations. The UN was no more. Every nation out for it's own. So why would they let American government officials build bunkers in their country? Unless it's a remote area like Antartica.

I just see it as rats jumping ship. Some just desided to leave and find their own place to stay safe.

This is one of the 4 possible NCR endings in Fallout 2-

'NCR under military rule': Don't complete the deal, kill Westin and Carlson.
Shaken by the assassination of Vice-President Carlson, right-wing elements seize control of the Congress and set the New California Republic on the path to military rule. Eventually the survivors of the Enclave find a home in the ranks of NCR.

Yes, but it could have been thousands of Enclave inhabitants in each base as well. We don't know. But a organization like the Enclave would not have put faith into ONLY one Oil Rig. It (Oil Rig) might have been their HQ, but that would not mean it would be their last hope and only major base. They where also making contingency plans for the post war, a anything could happen so prepare for anything mentality, and making a single HQ would not fit that. That would mean multiple main bases (commanded by the Oil Rig). And only putting a handful of soldiers into a Post Nuclear base would make no since, considering the cost to make them and their purpose to rebuild America.

There are also a whole bunch (the majority I believe) of the bases spread out inside the USA. We know they must have survived the Great war too, because in the Presidential level, the room with the map shows us the bases. There would be no point to show a destroyed one on map where you make plans for war. They would be useless and erased if that was the case. ALSO take into mind that the bases would have been made to withstand a direct nuclear attack.

Also, some of the endings of FO2 can't be considered cannon. It says after the destruction of the Enclave they are completely destroyed, and the word president is used to scare little kids, but we see them in force in FO3. So the endings of FO2 should be questioned in some ways.

Cheers,
Mk II

Agreed at this point we just don't know what the numbers where. I am hoping small to few. Thousands would be odd because that would mean thousands were in on the Enclave plot and the Vaults. I don't see that. Enclave where the shadow government. To stay in the shadows you keep things simple and "need to know".

The Oil Rig did have a second back up base Vault Zero. Problem with Fallout Bible is that it was made after Fallout 2. Games after Fallout 2 aren't included. FO Tactics and FO3. The Vault has info but who put that info there? Info from Chris Avellone is gold for fallout fans and he wrote most of the bible I think. And I think it was him that said he can't add info from games like FO Tactics and FO3 because he did not work on them. I say this because Vault Zero is Canon and there are always the people that say it's not.

Well, having hundreds to thousands does make since in two ways:

1) The Enclave had quite a lot power before war. That would mean they would have to have a couple thousand alone to influence ANYTHING in a significant. But to have real control over the gov. (like they did) you would need 5-15k (compared to the 400mill that the population is said to be in 2077 in the US). Now add in space for their families, and you have a large number.

2) Rebuilding America will require a good amount of people. Not JUST the people at the oil rig. That is far too few. If they didn't have the man power, this goal of rebuilding america would be futile, even they would see that.
---

And yes, the FO bible would need to be changed for the "currrent" fallout world. One of the changes would be that the Enclave was not destroyed after FO2 (seen in FO3).

Cheers,
Mk II

I could see a hardcoe (fanatical) group of Enclave before the war but when the numbers start getting into the thousands it would be safe to say that most would be just working for them. Or just pawns. After 200 years with no contact they would just give up. It's safe to say they had no contact with bases outside of the nation seeing as how they lost contact with the Vaults.

At this point there are way to many unknowns. It's possible that there could be Enclave in other nations. Enclave within the United States that are still powerful. It all comes down to "do we really want to deal with the Enclave again?"

Pretty much, yeah.

But including the Enclave as a secretive, elusive, high tech hostile group (who still hates "muties") wouldn't hurt anything as far as I can see. To see them as the Main enemy again would kinda get tiresome though. I would prefer a new enemy with the Enclave acting like a slightly stronger and more present commonwealth in FO3, but with more rumors (that can be heard of around the wasteland) and rare, rare patrols (as to loot some fun gear). I want to get a feeling that when playing in future fallout games, that the Enclave is unseen, but when you do run into them, they are extremely deadly and as a whole faction, a serious threat to contend with (but aren't because they are only sending out small patrols...for now). <--- Does that make since? :bonk:

As a Fallout Icon they shouldn't die and we should see more of them in future games, imo.

Cheers,
Mk II

Bear in mind that the Bibles aren't authoritative Canon. Nope, No Way.

They are at best Second Tier, and arguably Tertairy.

Authoriative Canon is just the games, what can be reasonably found in game (so its okay to pull from speech files if and only if it can be demonstrated in game). What's in MCA's head, or presented by him in the first person is nice, and the Bibles are great, but unless its in the game, its not definitive proof.

Edit: I've been crawling President Richardson's speech files, and found this:


However, the context only refers to vaults, not Enclave facilities.


I dont think that Vault Zero was ever an Enclave facility. It is seperate, a place that was put together by influential people that were not a part of the "Enclave Conspiracy" (pre war organisation that the "Enclave Organisation" became and responsible for the construction the "Enclave Facility"/Oil Rig)
Justification (wiki)


None of which is consistent with the Enclave's project. There's also no mention of them in game to my knowledge.


They could equaly be the suriving nodes of PosidoNet, or unfired Nuclear missles. Just Speculation, although justified speculation I'll grant you, I'm afraid. Even if they are Continutiy of government shelters, it doesn't mean they're populated - they could have been just temporary shelters designed to be populated just for the immediate strike survival with long term occupation intended at the Enclave Facility.

Yes, but as brought up before, "the president and the Enclave retreats to remote sections around the globe and make contingency plans for continuing the war."

It is then known that the Enclave retreated to multiple areas around the globe and made contingency plans for the post war. That being the case, It would make no sense for the Enclave to put all their hopes in one single base. It is far more likely that there are several Major bases (Most likely slightly smaller than the Oil Rig) are still in operation around the USA with smaller holdouts in other nations (due to the hard time keeping them secret in foreign lands).

And the shelters wouldn't be meant for the short term/initial strike periods. The people where put into the factualities 7 months before the bombs fell (moved in March, bombs fell in October). Why wouldn't they just move them there (the oil rig) to begin with? The best answer I can see is: In case the Oil Rig was found out by the Chinese, or something happened to it, there where other hopes of rebuilding America.

You again, need to bear in mind that MCA's bibles, whilst cool, are not authoritative, until they're in the game. They aren't proof, they're just commentary. However, please don't get me wrong, I agree that the Enclave is likely to have other facilities (all eggs in one basket isnt really their MO), but there is no proof of their existence to date.

Lets work the quoted through though. I'm POTUS. I've just boarded Air Force one in DC- How long does it take for me to get to the oil rig?

Answer: Hours. I need to fly to an airport that can accommodate an aircraft on the scale of a 747 on the west coast, and then transfer to a helicopter or boat to the oil rig.

If they launch when I'm in the air, I'm in a lot of crap- Missles don't have to worry about passenger comfort and fly fast (the UK would have a 3 minute warning in the cold war of a launch from the USSR). Assuming I'm spared the blasts and the plane is still flyable I can't get out of the aircraft (radiation risk means that its unsafe to be outside at all for 2 days, and then only short periods for 2 weeks) even if we can find somewhere to land the thing and don't just simply crash when we're out of fuel. In a nutshell, I'm dead.

Tthe damn reds are watching my movements by satellite. if they see me move to the oil rig (a very suspicious place for me to go given my defence infrastructure is in DC), they're going to see this as a signal that we're about to launch, so they'll launch.

Assuming that they didn't launch, and I'm at the rig, I still need to carry out the business of government. I can't do that from the rig without risking compromising its location to Red Spies, or worse, my own people (as much as a non co-enclave-conspirator could be considered my own people)

Its simply not safe (for me at least) to go to the rig, until the war is over, and the plan moves into the next stage. There are others in the Enclave Conspiracy that can go into seclusion / take retirement / "Spend more time with their family" without suspicion, but myself and my Cabinet aren't among them. We're too public. We need somewhere else to go (Camp David in my case, which isn't particularly suspicious as presidents often do presidential work there)


But again, its speculation. Well founded speculation, and a position I personally agree with, however it does not meet the standard of Proof.

Proof is a character or log in game directly discussing alternative Enclave Facilities. They don't to my knowledge, so there is no proof.

Eugenics-loving fascists being the bad guys 2 games in a row is enough for me.

Yes, your right. There is no in-game proof. There is proof of them having control of other places (or at least are monitoring them due to extreme importance (the Map with Many orange dots around the globe).

But the Closest thing we can have to in-game proof is the FO Bible. So that is what I use for my facts and reasoning, as well as some in game information.

Cheers,
Mk II

I would feel bad if the Enclave didn't come back. They shouldn't have been destroyed in Fallout 3. There's an enormous amount of mystery surrounding them; secrets of what happened before the war and during; it would really svck to have all that cut out.

My sentiments exactly (but where they actually destroyed?). I would like to see them in the future but not as a main enemy. I would like a FO games that had a separate faction as the "bad guy", while the Enclave acted as a Commonwealth-like faction from FO3 that a few enlightened individuals over the course of the game would warn you about. A occasional (close to the alien blaster encounter in rarity) patrol that you could stumble across that has Super high tech weapons and armor that made them next to impossible to kill if not wearing PA and have a advanced weapon (as they where in FO2)

It would give off the feeling that the Faction isn't "dead" but in hiding, yet still a formidable force to deal with if goal driven enough and is still working on new plans for eliminating all the "muties"and rebuilding America.

What do you guys think of that?

Honestly, the Enclave are just getting boring. Autumn's splinter group of the Enclave were much more interesting as they had goals more than just "kill all dem muties". If they return i would rather see them under his command. That would mean they were no longer a 'bad' faction either, which would be a good thing

The thought of them comming back again with the same goals, after having their leadership decapitated twice, both during their massive operations... well, i just find it unlikely people would keep trying after that. Those who were unsure of their goals to begin with would give up on it, and those who believed in the cause would be losing moral and faith in the groups capability to fulfil their goals. Thus leading to desertion, and possibly the forming of other more interesting factions.

The Enclave will be back, There popularity will keep the faction going into another Fallout game

I hope so :fallout: