I agree with most said here, it was down-right [censored] ridiculous...

The whole "Lone Wanderer helps us." part made no sense, am I really supposed to believe that nobody in THE ENCLAVE was willing to do it? Maybe one of the troopers in the extermination camps... no? It was pure "The PC must be involoved MORAL CHOICES!" and nobody was supposed to look to deep into the matter. Poor writing creating more plot holes, in F3, who would [censored] imagine eh :shrug:?

Also, nobody knew he was a machine? How the [censored] does that work, why would Autumn Senior keep that from them, surely they're weren't so many people in the Enclave to know that there wasn't a high ranking Eden who could become President, and if Eden did remain President for the whole 30 years, well wtf? That's just un-American and stupid, "The chain of command must be obey," Andronicus thank you a million times for reminding me of that quote, I seem to use it alot now.

Also, Styles why was the first Enclave plan dumb?

Poor wording on my part. First plan was great. Kill the entire world by using modded FEV into the Jet stream. FO3 rehash was the dumb one. A water born modded FEV that will kill everyone and everything that drinks the water. The water Project Purity was supposed to purify all the water. The plan came down to the player agreeing to help. Then Broken steel took that all away. Water now being dealt out by BoS in drums instead of what it was supposed to do and that was clean all the water in on shot. It would not take long to figure out the water was killing people. Things also got confusing when they added the ghoul cult giving people water with huge amounts of radiation.

One thing I can't figure out. Where did the Enclave in DC get FEV? I don't think they got it from Vault 87 because they would have killed all the super mutants or blown the Vault up. The Rig went boom so Enclave in East had to have come from Navarro.

I put in Fallout 3, being an Enclave buff of even the worst it has to offer, I was sure Eden said they took brought it with them, which in answer to your original question I guess they must have; I however heard this and require immediate answers,

"A great many years ago, the remnants of the government had a similar idea. I can only assume the plan failed, as I never heard word of it's success."
President Eden

Why the distinction of "remnants of the government," too? They were the Enclave.

So what the [censored] does this mean? Did Eden not contact the West Coast after the Oil Rig exploded? So the FEV was there? How did the Enclave come there and when. Please somebody more intelligent than me make sense of this. Damn bethesda, the only way I can insult further from this point is by un-capitalising your name. :banghead:

I guess its possible Eden learned of the Enclaves past plan from the Remnants that travelled to Raven Rock. Question then would be. Why did they not just try it again? Why did they change it from air to water born? Went from removing all mutations in the world to just the ones in the DC area :rolleyes: Something they could have done with plasma weapons. Did Eden think that was a better plan?

Trying to inject any kind of logic into this game makes my brain hurt...

I think it was something to do with the Oil Rig's placement, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream would carry the air-born virus around the world for them, maybe because of the air contaminents that would be picked up over DC they could release it there. I don't know, Bethesda certainly didn't think about that, they just altered it to fit in with the whole purifier story.

If he never contacted them since then how did he become President and on who's authority, how did they know he was there and why the [censored] did they go. I think me and you need to hammer our respective theories about the move from West to East again.

Why did they make Eden the president? Because was because Autumn Senior was a tool. I am going on the idea that Raven Rock was abandoned as a place the Enclave would hide out during the war. When the Oil Rig was destroyed a message was sent from Navarro or from the Rigs computers before they were destoyed in the blast which switched Eden On. Eden then sent out a signal to Navarro.

There is not much logic in the story at all.

Somewhere a it surfaced that he was a "Presidential Advisor" to the previous administration, which me and Andronicus think refers to some position on the Richardson's Cabinet, the room of which can be seen next to Daniel Bird's office, which therefore allows him to become the Acting President being the last surviving member of the US Cabinet by the Presidential Line of Succession. This makes me believe that Eden became sentient and was put to work by Richardson's administration after they noticed, pressumabely before haand they used satilitites to send him data to crunch of something, ZAX things.

Raven Rock was pressumabely built before the Oil Rig and like other Enclave installations was put mostly into standby (which Kreger mentions) until the time should come that the Enclave need it.

But after the Oil Rig it all becomes, obviously, difficult to speculate. I always assumed that Eden contacted Navarro, except nobdy knew he was a machine because obviously the Enclave stationed an immortal in DC and nobody knew who served on the Cabinet... [censored] it, I can't even be bothered to mock speculate as an insult to bethesda's writing ability. Really it isn't possible that nobody knew he was a computer, it just makes no sense.

Was Eden the President the Entire time of the Enclave being at Raven Rock? Was it mentioned in the game? If Richardson was talking to Eden then that makes little sense. I can see Richardson using Eden as a data base, why waste a Zax computer? I alway assumed the same as you. He did not make contact with Raven Rock till after the Rig. Agreed I am sure someone would have figured it out that he was a computer. If they knew about Raven Rock then why did they not know about the Orbital Weapon?

I think they were going for a "what a twist" thing. Having all that tech stashed away in DC or close by. Countless Vertibirds, Land Base crawler and weapons. Why did they not just go there before the great war? Why the Rig?

Enclave did not come up with their Jet Stream Idea till sometime before FO2. Seeing as how they re-opened Mariposa to get the FEV. So going to the Rig for the Jet Stream can't be it.

Well it's never stated that he was President the entire time but it was on his orders that they went to Raven Rock, I assumed that maybe he remained President under some sort of National Emergency Act or something, that at least was my only idea. It just isn't possible to reason the full facts and forever onwards Enclave RPer's like myself unfortunately will never be able to talk in to much detail about the move to Raven Rock or life within it, they're are just too many actual plot holes, not even just inconsistancies, to contend with; it's stupid and poorly written and I, when had barely turned 15, had completed Fallout 3 for the first time I could see some of these gaping wounds in the side of the Fallout franchise. [censored] Fallout 3, now and forever I say.

I am going with. Eden was abandoned by the Enclave pre-war. They sided with the Rig. When the Rig blew up a signal was sent and Eden was powered up and started sending an automated signal to Navarro. Slowly he became self-aware, learning American History from the archives. Like other AI in fallout he develped a personality. Enclave under Senior show up. Eden Welcomes them in. (Around then everyone should have figured out he was a machine). The Remnants of the Rig form a new government and Eden is made as an advisor seeing as he knows more about America then any of them. President dies shortly after and Eden becomes president. Maybe just due to no one else wanting the job.

I agree FO3 is full of plot holes. Hopefully FO4 will fill some of them but that could make it worse.

My theory has always been that Eden was the last in the Presidential line of succession and was created to service the role of "last resort" President in the event of an extreme national emergency (ie. what happened with the rig). Given that United States Presidential protocol states that a President must be a civilian, and given that all of the Raven Rock personel appear to be military, and those that would not be military (women and children) would not necessarily be ready for leadership of the Enclave, Eden took legitimate command given both his COG and succession protocol guidelines.

But it was kind of a stretch that Raven Rock was not in use at all by the Enclave after the war until Fallout 3. Given that in real life, the Raven Rock Government facility would be the command headquarters of the pentagon should a "great war" senario occur.

Side note: heres an interesting article concering http://post-gazette.com/columnists/20011216homefrontp5.asp

I think the reason why Raven Rock had a huge stash of vertibirds, weapons, and armor was because it was a military facility whereas the Oil Rig was still a hastily converted civilian facility as was Navarro. The Enclave probably chose the oil rig over Raven because they knew that the enemy wouldn't nuke a random oil rig in the Pacific but a bunker north of the capital has a much higher chance of getting hit.

But: Vertibirds, plasma rifles (the ones in FO3) and APA were made after the war, at the Oilrig.

Richardson dies in 2242. Autumn Senior leads remnants East to DC. Eden "dies" in 2277. Thats 35 years. It took the BoS two years to get to DC. We don't know how long it took Autumn Senior. Still there is a gap there. I doubt Autumn Senior would come across a radio signal of someone over 3000 miles away and just hand him the presidency. Someone would have been made President after the Rig and the time it took to get to the Rock.

It is said that Autumn Senior lead the remnants East. If their was a president in that short time his name would have been given? Then again it would have been a civilian. That civilian would have made Autumn the man in charge of getting the remnants to DC.

@Jayrad if they picked Oil Rig over Raven Rock because it has less chance of being destroyed, then why did they not abandon the Rig and move to the Rock after the Great War?

rusina is right the Oil Rig had the means to produce Advanced PA and Plasma Weapons.

.



He can't really just "hand" someone the Presidency, it doesn't work like that, Senior would have had absolutely no authority to do it (indeed the only time a presidency can be "handed" is when the line of succession begins to be followed, ie. a President dies in office and the vice president is now acting President). He was contacted by Eden and he recognized that Eden was now President given COG protocols. No-one would have had to have been made President in the time it would have taken them to get to Raven Rock.



I don't really think that there was or could have been a President in the short time since they had recieved orders that Eden was now President (its plausible but seems extremely unlikely anyway). It is my understanding that there was no civilian leadership alive following the oil rig disaster so they were at a loss for a time until Eden contacted them. Besides if there was a President on the west coast. Why would they go east?

anyway just my thoughts

I also think that Raven Rock must have had some manufacturing capabilities but they wouldn't have been as great as that of the Oil Rig.

The Enclave Remnants from FO3 came from Navarro. Navarro was full of Civilians. How is Eden the president, he just tells Senior he is? Why would he believe someone from 3000 miles away that they did not even know was there?

If Eden was a member of Richardsons Office then that just makes even less sense. All that great tech in DC but for the PA just sitting there in massive amounts. Why would the Enclave on the Rig and Navarro stay there? Why would the not just go to DC and take control of their massive army and space weapon? They would have also been first to get Optimus Prime. Enclave would have know about that?

Eden is a machine and can't be president. A president can't be in power more then 8 years. Only "logic" there is that the Enclave are massive tools willing to break all their own rules the very ones they are willing to commit genocide over.

Perhaps all of the ZAX computers are either connected or have had contact with each other other the years? Wasn't there a ZAX computer in the Glow that had information on the FEV? If that is the case, perhaps that computer somehow sent the information on how the FEV was created (or where samples could be located).

Just a possibility of course.

Yes there is a ZAX in The Glow (West-Tek).Skynet from FO2 is in Meraposa and was going insain from being alone for so many years. All FEV was moved from West-Tek to Meraposa before the Great War. All but Vault 87 :rolleyes:

There's a few assumptions you've made here styles. At the moment in the real world, you're correct, under the US constitution Eden could not be president.

But, the Constitution can be amended, I would argue that for the Enclave to be able to function under the US constitution it would have to be amended - The US government is required to run a Census for example across all of the country so that it can approportion representatives across them - Obviously it can't run a census across all 50 states at the moment, so any election for President or Congress is on shaky ground.

I think its reasonable to expect that as war came closer to home there would have been amendments and emergency legislation radically effecting the structure of the US government. Term limits could have been suspended on the grounds that it would be impractical for the apparatus of elections to work. There is precedent for this - Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus (Your right to challenge your incarceration as invalid - seen as a pretty essential right) during the Civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_during_the_Civil_War

Similarly in the event that Central Government in the UK becomes impractical due to nuclerar war, local designates (often the mayor) are given the powers of Central Government in their area.

---

My "hypothesis" of the Enclave government looks like this (up to at least the end of FO3) - and I'll admit it has little, if anything, supporting it.

President: The President currently has the ability to rule by Edict, as given to him by congress by a statutory instrument/enabling act and renewed regularly whilst the current emergency continues.

The Congress: The Congress is a toothless tiger. The Congress' role is to cheer on the President, create the illusion of democracy, and pass enabling acts giving the president the right to act. States continue to have the same number of representatives in the house as the census has been suspended "for the duration of the emergency" and continues to have its constitutional sentate membership
The commonwealth committee: One member per Commonwealth (as in the super states in fallout, not the real world Puerto Rico/Northern Marinara Islands definition). In theory, these people represent the now fallen commonweaths. They have the ability to rule by decree in their commonweaths given to them by their legislatures before the bombs dropped. These folk are probably the most powerful people in the Enclave - As they speak for the commonweaths (and their constituent states), they choose who the president is (not directly - they appoint people to the electoral college based on the pre-war formula, and the electoral college decides the president), who the senate is (presuming that direct elections to the senate is suspended - earlier in US history it was the state goverments who appointed senators, there was no elections), and can (most importantly) Amend the consitution. This could be both the "High Command" mentioned in broken steel, and "The proper people" talked about by Eden (which would make him legitimately elected president - The Committee changed the constitution enough not to exclude a computer, called the electoral college, and instructed them to vote for Eden.

Changing the Constitution - Presuming that the Enclave is trying to adhere as much as possbile to the US constition as much as the current situation will allow, they need to at least present a show of following Article V of the US constituion - this is the bit that says how the constitution is amended.
Article V says a constituional Amendment:
1: Must be Proposed, either by the legislature of 2/3 of the states, or 2/3rds of both of the federal houses.
2: Passed by 3/4 of the states.

Under my theory, as the members of the Commonweath committee for all intents and purposes are the states - they excercise the full powers of the states and commonwealths - can pass changes to the constiution in a simple meeting. If this was the case, than any constitutional restriction really has no meaning. As such, any man, computer, or dog could be president for as long as the committee liked. That makes this Comittee the true government of the enclave (and makes them look extra-creepy).

I was thinking Amendments as well. Still I can't picture Pre-war government giving an amendment to allow a machine to be president or a member of the government. America was winning the war with China and tech was set to improve things greatly in America. I don't see things being bad enough for the Government to make such amendments effectively allowing the president to be the new "Caesar" of America. Even less likely having such admendments allowing a machine even with AI to be president or a member of government.

As for pre-war again this would mean that Richardson knew about Raven Rock and all the unlimited goodies stashed away there. Which means why the Oil Rig? If the changes were not done pre-war then Why would the Enclave make them after the war? They are trying to bring back America.

Admendments could have been made after the Fall of the Rig to allow Eden to be in the government and later to be president for life. Which means there must have been a president after Richardson and before Eden.

If you are right and Admendments were made pre-war then Enclave are fighting for a very different America then was around in the 1950s. They are not fighting for Freedom, Democracy and the American way. They are fighting for a country that can be ruled by an AI "Caesar" for "life". AI can "live" a long time.

Oh goody, another opportunity for me to show my awesome Fallout knowledge! :celebration:

Skynet was from Sierra Army Depot and there was some FEV in West-Tek (FEV I, I believe) which spread across the planet after that unfortunately accurate nuke.

Doesn't even need to be amendments necessarily (didn't we already have this discussion?).

As per COG (Continuity of Government, which Eden explains he is acting under) Eden took command after the entire presidential line of succession was broken to him (ie. 1-18 were killed in the Oil Rig disaster and this leaves noone available for the office but eden, whom I guess was the emergency number "19"). There doesn't need to be an election (in fact there really can't be) and I would guess that Eden was also given special emergency powers that could have been delegated to him through an unknown amendment pre-war or through the Fallout's version of COG (real life COG has emergency powers reserved to the President but they don't seem to be as drastic as Fallout 3's version).

COG is extremly important to the Enclave as it is what their entire existance depends on and indeed what they must uphold. What I mean as in there are no civilians is that in Fallout 3, there doesn't appear to be any civiilan leadership. I would guess that at Navarro the situation was much the same. Contrary to what people think, you can't just pull a random civilian guy out and say "congrats your the prez". It doesn't work like that. There is a strict chain of command and there must not have been time to organize a proper election and indeed as I already said, the numbers of valid canidates was virtually non-existant.

In short, Eden, in the Fallout universe. Is the rightful President. His function (as I understand it) was to serve as a stand-in temporary President in the case of an extreme national emergency and if the entire line of succession was broken (which it was). So when Eden says "the appropriate people decided I should be" he is telling the unvarnished truth. He has taken command under the auithority given to him by COG protcol.

I believe we did and it makes sense if Eden was human. The United States Constitution has nothing about a Computer/AI being allowed as a member of the Government let alone president. People born in another country can't be president. If the COG happened it would not include people born in other countries (Right?). Anyways Eden is not human. Second the United States Constitution does not allow a president to stay in power for more then 8 years. Only one exception Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I can't see the Enclave letting a AI computer be president and for 35 years or so.

Thats why the topic of possible amendments came up.

Who says the Fallout America, you know the one that has ZAX like our's doesnt, didnt allow that?

Fallout is 1950s mindset. Stands to reason the rules of who can be president would be the same in fallout as they are then. Still I don't know but it would have been good if there was something mentioned by Eden "Amendment (# here) of 2076 allowed for AI in the case of (disaster) to be president till such time as things return to normal." Something like that. Since Eden being a machine was a secret it stands to reason that AI could not be president in the Fallout world.

Would AI be counted as human as in given rights in pre-war Fallout? No mention of it.