Your right. Currently a snow ball has a better chance of lasting in hell than a computer has at being a President. Thats not the point though, we're talking the Fallout universe (the one with the incredibly advanced AI computers and other Sci-fi aspects). Eden was apparently created to service the role of "robo-pres" and COG protocols authorize him. Colonel Autumn recognizes it ("the chain of command must be upheld"). As did Autumn senior.

Also during the times of an extreme national emergency (Oil Rig was beyond extreme). Many of the provisions of the consitution can be suspended. During the Civil war, Abraham Lincoln suspended the right to Habeas Corpus as per his declaration of emergency power (something that even the constitution doesn't allow). More than likely, given that no other viable canidates for the office appear to be in Raven Rock. President Eden declared a state of emergency and suspended the 22nd amendment until the stated time as to when a proper "fair and free" election could occur and when the "national emergency" had ended. The president's emergency powers are indeed great as the consitution puts very few specific limits on what he can and can't do.

Thats my theory anyway.

If AI could be president in Fallout then why was Edens true self kept secret? Your theory makes some sense but to me that just makes the Enclave in FO3 mostly Autumn and his dad really big Tools. Blindly following a computer which has no righ to be president other then it some how as a code saying it does.

Eden being in contact with Richardson opens the door to big plot holes a to why were the Enclave even in the West? Clearly all the good stuff was in the East.

If there was a president between Richardson and Eden those plot holes would be closed. President X become president by COG and put Autumn senior incharge of getting the remnants from Navarro "diehards" East, following the signal. When they get to the Rock Eden lets them in. President X lets Eden be an advisor seeing as Eden studied everything about pre-war America. Knowing more then any of the Remnants. President X makes a change to let Eden be next in line but sees the need to not let the others Know about Edens true nature so they won't go "were not following a Machine!" President X dies and Eden becomes president.

Closes that plot hole IMO.

"COG" is not just a few lines of "code". It really has just as much authority to make a president as an election does. It also does not make the Autumns "tools". It means they were following protocol.

Eden, i would guess, kept his true self secret for his own reasons. Clearly the notion of a computer being the President must have been a foriegn concept. But equally as cleary it was not that foriegn (The Autumns didn't seem to have much problem with it).



That could have happened yes. But it is just as likely that COG was amended to allow for Eden by Richardson or any President before him really.




unfortunately I can offer no explanation as to that. I am merely working with what I have and explaining the case for Eden's legitimacy.

Anyway I think we should give up on this debate Styles. Clearly we reached an impass with both of us offering good points and counter-points. :foodndrink: We can't do much more than speculate as of now.

Besides, it doesn't matter, I couldn't imagine they could bring back Eden now anyway. What we need to be arguing about is who the next president of the Enclave is (this is assuming of course that the Enclave is still out there somewhere, even if it is in a limited form).

Agreed it has been a good debate including The Enclave and agent-c in the debate as well. Its all speculation built on what little info we have. So many theories all have credibility. We need more lore/canon to build off.

If we see East Coast Enclave again as a faction. I hope they are a small but powerful faction. Autumn JR as president and their goals no longer to "kill all mutations" ie everyone but Enclave. I hope their new Goal is "can't beat them, might as well control them."

But then they wouldn't be Fallout's bowser :eyeroll:

Instead of trying to kill them all in one shot they start a program of slower genocide. They stop the killing of people that look like people and focus on killing ghouls, Super Mutants and other mutations.

Would be nice if they find a friend in the MWBoS under the contol of general barnaky.

as long as he gave up his military command. :wink_smile:



This has been quite an adventure of a debate hasn't it? This isn't just a debate over a game, I've managed to put some of my knowledge about the American government into it as well and all parties (The Enclave and agent-c of course included) have made some really good points. I like it. :celebration: drinks all around! :foodndrink:

I agree with Styles the Enclave isn't whats getting old it's their :flamethrower: :flamethrower: KILL EVERYONE WHO ISN'T ENCLAVE DIEEEE :gun: :gun: WASTELANDERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! attitude.

I have to say, Lt. Is the first Fallout 3 fan I've ever respected. This is a lot coming from me :/.

why thank you good sir. :biggrin:

What did I do to deserve this honor? I think its my spiffy choice of fashion right? :woot:

I don't know about him, but it has prevented certain... contracts from being filed and assigned for execution.

I think it could be due to the fact that(and I'm just going by the posts I've read since the time I first started posting here) you make your points and don't jump down other member's throats if their opinions differ from yours.

Also, you seem pretty open-minded for a lover of the Enclave.

Christ you've all had a long discussion, would have taken more part but timezones and all, that and I was out. Anyway, just some of my two cents on some things.



This is really in response to the whole Oil Rig over Raven Rock situation. We don't really know anytihng about how the Oil Rig was designed, whether it was purpose built or converted. House claimed to predict that nuclear war would occur 15 years in advance alllowing him to put all his plans into action, therefore I believe that it is safe to assume that the Enclave (who worked with RobCo anyway right?) could predict that the end was coming, the Oil Rig is vast, huge, it has manufacturing capabilities, Vertibird hangers, the tanker themselves dock into the rig, laboratories and all those electronics and such needed. I really don't see why an Oil Rig that big would be built, it wasn't over the worlds biggest oil reserve, it should have been just the size of a regular oil rig. What where the power armour labs and the hangers before the Enclave hypothetically converted it? Storage you could say but I would disagree, it's only a typical oil reserve and wouldn't justify building it that size without the intent to convert it.

The way I see it is that Raven Rock was built long before the Oil Rig and was simply rendered obselete as a continuity of government location and was just put into standby mode, and guess what happened, the BoS attacked it, because it is on land. The Oil Rig is just a more defensable location, in addition to the pre-war IFF defense system. Navarro was pressumably built alongside the Oil Rig with the same intent, I'm no expert but I don't think oil refineries have warehouses which just happen to function as hangers and huge ventilated underground barracks.



Obsidian being more gifted in the old brain department retconned that the plasma rifles were made before the war by RobCo's subsidiary REPCONN based on REPCONN's plasma technology developed for engines, also on stolen plans and such from Poseidon Energy.



I don't believe that Eden claims to be acting under existing protocols, he doesn't claim [censored] because no thought was put into designing it or the Enclave in F3. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090221205625/fallout/images/9/97/Fo2_Oil_Rig_Presidential_Quarters.png can be seen next to Daniel Birds office, it only has 9 seats, one for the President at the head, the Vice-President Bird and maybe Tom Murray, head of the Atomic Energy Commision (which I wager maybe the Department of Energy). What the most likely solution is that Eden became President through Line of Succession protocols after the rest of the Cabinet died, but for that the make sense Eden would have had to be in contact with Richardson after he became sentient surely, otherwise he would just be a datacrunching machine. As for the lack of civilians in Fallout 3, I refuse to believe that they're none, it's just Bethesda not thinking again, Raven Rock was huge don't forget, we only saw 8 beds in the whole place for example. His function was to be a ZAX datacruncher, he was never designed to gain sentienence and I can only assume that after he gain intelligence (which I place before 2242) Richardson decided to make the best of it's huge, fast thinking, logical brain to help make decisions and calculate probabilities and such. I think anything Eden says on Enclave radio can be disregarded as lies, he's just covering for the fact that anyone in the wasteland who knows how the US Government worked would be able to see plotholes in his presidency.



I don't se why the remnants at Navarro would know so little of government policy that they need Eden to help, besides that would mean surely that a lot of people at Navarro would know about him being a machine, would President X send everyone out of the room and operate the satilite communications by himself? Why would Autumn Sr and then Jr keep letting Eden rule? After 30 years I mean surely questions would be asked, ie, "Just what does Eden look like?" "Why has nobdy ever seen him?" "Why did we cross America to come to this abandoned base?" Also, by saying that the Enclave had some form of organisation, hell a President, after the Oil Rig to organise this mass exodus, doesn't that kind of contradict your own "diehards" theory?



Well that's just down to personal taste really, I would sooner the Enclave just die off than permenantly scrap the reason for their existance, biding their time in Chicago or disolved, I would personally disown the Enclave if they worked with the BoS of all people.

@Andronicus, indeed you are a credit to all of us who were introduced to Fallout by F3, just because we didn't play the originals back in the day doesn't mean we don't care about the whole lore and worship the ground F3 treads.

It's mostly because you are logical, coherent, and not inflammatory. On top of that you aren't annoying. I daresay this warrants giving you a cookie.

:cookie:

I'll take that cookie and enjoy it....if only I had some milk



Some good points The Enclave but I'll offer some counter-arguements to them.

1. Eden does claim to be acting under COG protocol when he says "This facility (meaning himself and Raven Rock) was designed for Continuity of Government, in the event a catastrophe occured (Oil Rig)."

2. I assume that he was in contact with Richardson after gaining sentinence as he served as "an advisor" (I consider advisior a key term here as one would not normally consider a compter which is a "data-cruncher" to be an "advisor").

3. Yes, I agree that there must be civilians in Raven Rock (the facility is obviously much larger than what we saw in Fallout 3). But what I am arguing is that there are no civilians who are ready to lead the United States (ie. they would be women and children and possibly old fogies from the rig) and who have very little if any political experience and it would be a disaster to set them up as the President (in effect it would be the military controlling the country and that is against the principles of the United States).

4. Yes, there are some plotholes in Eden's presidency but what I am saying is that Eden's Presidency is not as "ridiculous" as some might think, that a case can at least be formed on his behalf and it holds up reasonably well. I only ask that people recognize the existance of the possiblity for his legitimacy.

Eden is a giant datacruncher. He studied the data base at the Rock. True we don't know how good the Enclave education system. Richerdson and his governmnet cabinet get nuked. So they turn to Navarro. They go through the list of "who is next in line." Chances are anyone who knew the most about the Constitution were on the Rig. They find the person that should be the next president. He/she decideds they will follow the signal to Raven Rock.

Given what we know from New Vegas many stayed at Navarro. So those willing to travel 3000 miles across unknown America following an automated signal would be "diehards." Even a person with basic education knows a president can't be in power for more then 8 years, has to be born in America. I am also sure alot of people would agree AI can't be president. So they pick president X. When they get to the Rock he makes changes so Eden can be president.

Problems I have is. If Richardson was aware of Eden and the Rock. Then why the Oil Rig/Navarro? They could have done everything they did in FO2 but from the Rock. Its a really big plot hole imo.

If Richardson made these changes then why no mention of it from Eden? If these changes were made then the Enclave are not fighting to rebuild the America I know (I am not American) they are fighting for a country that can have a president for life as well as an AI president and they can "live" a very long time.

Another is How does an AI become president. Unless there was some sort of amendment saying AI are people and have the same rights and therefore can be president. When it came to pick who replaced Richardson, Eden if they did know about him should have been overlooked no matter if he was a memeber of the cabinet. It would be the samething as if the the president and is cabinet died and they went through the list and the next person who should be president based on his position and it turns out he was not born in America. He would be over looked to the next person.

I agree that alot of people woul ask questions over the years and want to see him not just hear him. They would wonder "its been 8 years should we not pick a new guy?" Its just bad writing..

The BOS are awesome. how could you say that to them. Enclave i wouldn't want them to die out they give some good fights and are important to the Fallout Series. They should be limited but not by much also.

Well to be fair Richardson was in office for 20 years, after 5 succesive elections of course and he was planning his campaign for his 6th term, I just think that the Rock was rendered obselete by the Rig, why is Raven Rock so good, the Crawler too, I'm sure that the Oil Rig had a Satilite Connection. Besides, when they came up with the plan to posion the world, they needed the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream, maybe Raven Rock was in the wrong place, why would they need to uproot if they had the Oil Rig anyway.Eden claims to have studied the histories of all Presidents from someone to Richardson, he even admired Richardson to some extent I believe as a true American hero.

But yeah, basically we are trying to justify plot-holes that weren't even considered by the writing staff, it wouldn't surprise me if the whole idea to put the Enclave in the game just turned out to be so that Bethesda could make a cute refernce to Morrowind with the Raven Rock base, which of course exists.

That's just it isn't it? They won't go the hell away because they are "teh 3p1cn3ss!!11eleven!1one"

BOS is starting to get really boring.

West-Coast is in a decline and dying out, they lost all their glory and are now a bunch of pathetic xenophobes.
MWBOS isn't getting touched unless there is a Tactics II.
And the only one's that seems to be interesting are the Outcasts which had one collection quest and Lyons Brotherhood which are holy white knights.

So yeah, BOS has had their 5 minutes of stage time, they've been in every damn game, the only media they haven't been in is the Penny Arcade and All Roads comics.
It's about time for them to be excluded from a game.
Not even minor presence.
Not even one single former BOS person.

BOS is basically just fan-service right now.
West-coast is dying out and should at some point finally be completely dead.
MWBOS should be left alone until Tactics II gets released.
And Lyons Brotherhood is hardly BOS anymore so I wouldn't count them as BOS by FO4.
So please, for the love of god Bethesda just kill them off already! (...Except for the mid-western branch.)

you have to understand. COG throws out some restraints on presidents and emergency powers would be in place as well. This is the nationalistic America of the fallout universe which is also in an extreme national crisis. It also appears to me that the judicial and legislative branches are basically no more, which puts even less restraints on the President.



"Changes" that were made during a state of national emergency would not mean that America (the America of the Fallout universe) was no more (remember the America of Fallout is very different from the current America already). Besides, under real-life COG, the American government would be very different as well.



No its not the same thing. Eden (as I understand it) is part of COG. Meaning he is offically part of the line of presidential succession which validates his claim to the presidency. The fact that he is part of COG changes everything and cannot be overlooked, it is the single most important part of his legitimacy. Eden is number 19. The line has been eradicated until 19 via the Oil Rig disaster. Eden becomes president and enacts emergency powers which extends his presidency during the time of national emergency (suspending the 22nd amendment). With no legitimate civilian leadership left, Eden remains in charge because it is his duty to uphold the standard of non-military rule (because that would be facism).

COG and emergency powers overrule everything. No elections need to be made and no changes to the constitution enacted.

anyway just my 2 cents. I'm just trying to make the point that Eden's presidency can't just be written off as "stupid". There is some cause for his leadership.

EDIT: I should also point out that I am not making a case for Eden's presidency in our current world. I am making a case for his legitmacy in the very different universe of fallout.

I guess that is it then. Richardson made it so Eden was member 19 9 and therefore COG gives Eden the right to be president.

This now opens the door to the biggest Plot hole imo. WHY was the Enclave even in the West to start with? During a nuclear war Raven Rock with its vast amounts of everything would clearly be the best place to go. Its closer to DC as well. Sure makes it more of a target but it survived, alot of DC survived :rolleyes:.

IMO it just means Enclave really had no reason to be in FO3 and plot holes like that give me headaches :sadvaultboy: Add how they managed to have a major population explosion in 30 years and came back from a near extinction.

When was COG made up in our timeline?

There were only 9 seats in Richardson's Cabinet Room, one for him, one for the Vice President, leaving only 7 other chairs.

Why is Raven Rock better than the Rig, the Oil Rig has both a natural defense, ie, being in the middle of the ocean and has the added defense of the pre-war weaponry. Why would the Enclave want to hide in DC which would inevitably get bombed?

I got 19 from the talk with Lt. Andronicus.

I say Raven Rock is better just based on the endless amounts of Vertibirds, weapons and that Land base and space weapon form BS. As well as there force field tech. Only thing it does not seem to have is the ablility to make Advanced PA.

They had such stockpiles of everything. Its close to the Capital and "Enclave are the Government" why would they abandon the capital so easy? Oil Rig has protection by being in the ocean yes but if they knew Raven Rock was safe then why did they not just move back to the Rock the moment Eden started talking to them?

The way they were fighting so hard for the Capital building which some how survived shows they want to rule DC again.

Why abandon a the Oil Rig and make a dangerous 3000 mile trip when the Oil Rig already suits their every need, as it was designed to being built after Raven Rock; Raven Rock is just obselete, the Oil Rig was built after and was designed to be the proper continuity of government base which is why nobody went to Raven Rock. I'm sure the Oil Rig had the cability of satilite communications to contact orbital weaponary, as well as for communication with Eden/ZAX before 2242. The Oil Rig was in the ideal place to launch the Curling-13 FEV into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090221205625/fallout/images/9/97/Fo2_Oil_Rig_Presidential_Quarters.png is the room to the top right with the Presidential Seal on the table, head seat for Richardson, a seat of Vice-President and I suspect that Tom Murray, Head of the Atomic Energy Commision (a post-war organisation which I believe may be some continuation of the Department of Energy) may have had a seat, he directly communicated with the President and was in charge of the Oil Rig's fusion reactor after all.

The capital was a huge target, placing the survival of the entire government on something as unnecessary as "It's the Capital," strikes me as counter-productive and downright silly, why risk it all on some sense of tradition when they could be, garunteed safe on the Rig and just go there later. A huge storage of Vertibirds, big deal, probably put there before the war to use when they eventually made it to Raven Rock after the bombs, however long that would have taken. What's so impressive about the Crawler, the energy that thing must require to be able to move, it's a satilite dish essentially, the kind that existed all across America. Forcefields were present on the Oil Rig in the detention centers for example, they were even in F1/F2 Vaults they aren't that rare.