"We're through the looking-glass here, people" :shifty:

dike himself said the reds launched first. I don't think he had any reason to lie to the Chosen One.

The Enclave aren't even close to evil. The leadership is. Is every individual storm trooper a bad guy? No way, he's just doing his job. Enclave as a faction are very Lawful Evil due to their leadership.

Chances are he is right. China Launched as a way to play spoiler. Take the word down with them. Still maybe be those before dike lied to him.

• You're an illegal alien on Enclave territory. Proposition 312 orders us to shoot on sight.
  Sorry, boy!
  
• He's a mutant spy! Take him out, team!
  
• As a loyal soldier of the Enclave, I got orders to kill you. Hope you don't mind.
  
• Now I suppose you're going to tell me you're just out looking for a water chip. Do I look dumb?
  Get him!
  
• Die, wasteland scum!
  
• You! It's your kind that destroyed this once mighty nation. You're gonna pay!
  
• Hey, Louie! You ever seen what one of these babies does to soft tissue? Watch!
  
• Don't worry, it's only some wasteland bimbo. She won't put up much of a fight.
  
• Don't talk to me! You'll not corrupt me with your feminine temptations! Die!

Look, we all think that the Remnants are a refeshing, well-written change from pace after what we've all had to endure, but am I the only one who thinks that they're a little too over-played? This is what the F2 era Enclave Patrolmen were like, not "We just wanted to civilise things." ands they're are Patrolmen as Moreno pretty much confirms when he talks about who he used to Gatling Laser anything which didn't run, where? In the wastes. I think that they're a little untrue to they're roots to be honest, only Moreno could be one of these guys and in my opinion his lines were the best anyway, see signiture. It was pretty clear that Obsidian compensating for something (:whistling:)...

EDIT: I too see no reason why Richardson would lie, the commie bastards!

Remnants had many many years to think back on what they did. Some were not soldiers but did other things within the Enclave. After seeing the Rig get blown up and Navarrow fall that would take alot out of you. If they were trully diehards then why did they not go with the others to Raven Rock? They were well done. They lost and they know it. They just want to live out the rest of their lives but NCR and BoS want them dead.

You just tried to prove the Enclave were not nice people at least with the troops so why would their president a man willing to kill everyone and everything on the planet be above lying? How do we know that he was not lied to?

Still its just a theory lol.

He thought you were a trooper, and if your theory about the Enclave ochastrating the war was correct, why would he lie?

About not going to Raven Rock, I believe that was more a game designer choice really, none of them even mention that surely a large number went East beforehand by, you know, the new President and all. I just think that Obsidian was going to continue perhaps the original way things would have turned out and Beth continuity be damned.

"We just wanted to civilise things," Kreger is clearly talking about his days in the Enclave, which mmay infact be the exact question you ask him, I remember now, "The leadership was a bit ruthless but most of us just wanted to civilise things, the NCR was still new and we didn't think that it would last long." Sounds like he even respected the NCR to me, I don't know, I just put most of it down to Obsidian wanting to continue an original ending for the entire Enclave and just ignoring Beth and trying to elevate the Enclave from the position so many F3 fans think them to be, Canon-Fodder shooty fun, like that guy who said Fallout wasn;t Fallout with Enclave and Super Mutants.

Some people tell themselves lies all the time to help them deal with bad things they have done or seen. They tell the lie so much they soon start to think it its the truth.

The Enclave are a mixed bag of nuts:
-Well-meaning military commanders and doctors.
-Mad scientists.
-Right-wing nutjob descendents of Pre-War warmongers and war profiteers.
-The occasional mutated uber-soldat.
-A hard-@55ed gunnery sgt.
-Vertibird pilots who love the freedom of flight.

To vault-dwellers or normal humans in the Wasteland, they'd probably look like salvation. To those who don't fit their narrow-minded criteria, they'd look like Hell incarnate. I just think they're a nice balance to the pseudo-knighthood of the Brootherhood of Steel.

they did it to restore the world to its pre war glory

This.

Obviously, this entire thread is a nicer form of prejudice against the enclave people, but we are talking about Enclave as an organization, Autumn being good does not simply brand the entire organization as good, he is just one person. Eden *was* the leader, he represents the Enclave. He was doing evil, evil things for the sake of America? You have to be ****ing kidding me.

I'm sure this will piss a lot of people off but hear me out. Hitler wanted to kill the jews because he saw them as bad, evil, and a drain on the society. He performed Genocide.
Eden wanted to kill the Humans, who to me seemed like NORMAL HUMANS, because he saw them as bad, evil, and a drain on America. He performed Genocide.

Not to mention the propoganda they both used to make people thing their cause was right.

See the similarities there?

Just a few examples of Enclave Patrolmen speak.

?You're an illegal alien on Enclave territory. Proposition 312 orders us to shoot on sight.
Sorry, boy!

?He's a mutant spy! Take him out, team!

?As a loyal soldier of the Enclave, I got orders to kill you. Hope you don't mind.

?Now I suppose you're going to tell me you're just out looking for a water chip. Do I look dumb?
Get him!

?Die, wasteland scum!

?You! It's your kind that destroyed this once mighty nation. You're gonna pay!

?Hey, Louie! You ever seen what one of these babies does to soft tissue? Watch!

?Don't worry, it's only some wasteland bimbo. She won't put up much of a fight.

?Don't talk to me! You'll not corrupt me with your feminine temptations! Die!

Autumn executed people as examples and didn't care about the existance of the extermination camps where people are svckered in with promises of water for a test before being burned alive to save fuel. Radiation does cause genetic conditions in Fallout, realistic one's like that of the people fo Vault City who only after several years of exposure to radiation via water from a leaking power station have experienced chromosomal damage and fertility problems, these are the genetic "mutantions" that the Enclave does not want [censored] up their perfectly healthy, pre-war strain; in their eye's they cannot risk passing genetic defects down the line ,see how much more reasonable this sounds that just saying everything is "Pure-therefore-Nazi Master Race Human?

The Enclave's reason for genocide is that it will be easier to rebuild without the wastelanders, the problems of whom are too great and they wouldnit accept their authority anyway, even in 2242, the NCR was dis-satisfied with simply trading with Vault City and hired mercs to attack it constantly till it accepted annexation, they plot to steal Vegas from House dispite provocation, how do you think that they would not eventually and intentially subjugate the Enclave?

In their own mind the Enclave are justified, people really need to stop immediately branding them as Nazis or Fascists before understanding what they set out to do. If the Enclave won then every human from then on would be born into a comftable and safe world of constant building, scientific advancement and progress.

About the Enclave soldier quotes, those were more of humorous choices on the developer parts.

Second, I do not care what the Enclave thought they were doing, I care about what they are doing, the reality, the truth. They killed people for their own convenience and idea of perfection for the American people.

Yeah they were really funny right, "Wasteland Scum" :shrug: ? That does not invalidate them.

Well whatever, in reality, the truth, in the long-run it would have been better, from then one every human being would be born into a safe world, in a clean hospital, in a world of no fighting, continual progress and scientific advanced; they're whole belief is that, "The ends justify the means,".

Well you know, I won't consider the Enclave to be 'good' or 'bad'

To me, they are the 'Ugly'.

They have good motives, but had a bad way of trying to execute those plans. They tried to rebuild america, but the Chosen One stopped those plans,
they had a government that seemed to be working, but it wasn't the best and had some issues.

I see the Enclave as one of the few hopes for the world of Fallout, but I also see some issues.

In Fallout 2, there was a soldier you could communicate with over a terminal and he thought you were a Enclave Trooper,
but when he saw you were on the mainland, he sent an enclave team (Or threatened to.) via Vertiberd to protect the enclaves information,
I saw the soldier was frustrated with another soldier, or he thought he was but when he found out that the Enclaves location and existance
was possibly endangered, he acts to protect them.


To them, the ends justify the means. :unsure2:

?You're an illegal alien on Enclave territory. Proposition 312 orders us to shoot on sight.
Sorry, boy!

?As a loyal soldier of the Enclave, I got orders to kill you. Hope you don't mind.

?Now I suppose you're going to tell me you're just out looking for a water chip. Do I look dumb?
Get him!

?Hey, Louie! You ever seen what one of these babies does to soft tissue? Watch!

?Don't worry, it's only some wasteland bimbo. She won't put up much of a fight.

?Don't talk to me! You'll not corrupt me with your feminine temptations! Die!

These look pretty silly.

Greaat Idea though, lets kill everybody to better humanity!
I'm pretty sure the Enclave does not have enough people to make a nation without it leading to incist.
That is all.

Just to say, they had families with the enclave, Arcade was proof of this.

Not everyone in the enclave was a soldier.

Well they did pretty at keeping their numbers up without interbreeding for the 150 years sealed on the Oil Rig, and what's so silly about:

?You're an illegal alien on Enclave territory. Proposition 312 orders us to shoot on sight.
Sorry, boy!

?As a loyal soldier of the Enclave, I got orders to kill you. Hope you don't mind.


Because they say "Sorry boy," and, "Hope you don't mind." That's just them being pricks.

The third is okay a silly refernece to Fallout 1.

The fourth and fifth, once again, just being arrogant pricks.

The final one I just included from the previous arguement I was quoting them for.

They are still canon and disprove any such nonsense that the Enclave was generally a kind and caring people led by a few bad eggs, whilst well written, the Remnants in Fallout New Vegas are being a little dis-honest too their roots, I understand it is to give some character to the Enclave after Fallout 3 but that's not the point, they could've been like Moreno.

Normally I'd be the first to say that the soldiers of a regime aren't guilty of its sins, but things are a little different with the Enclave. They're made up of a relatively small percentage of the US gov that was basically hand-picked. The Enclave want their people to repopulate the world, so they would be made up of mostly people who ideologically agree with their goals. There are exceptions of course, but it's still very hard to claim innocence. Personally I'd like to see their members crucified, with a red bull flag planted over the charred ruins of whatever bases they have left.