At the start of Fallout 2 the Enclave citizens were ultimately [censored]es to the leadership, post-Oil Rig I get the impression that things got a little more liberal, eg, Autumn and his little hissy fit. Post-Oil Rig, when they should (F3 :stare: ) be really low on personnel, I see no reason why they should begin repatriating Vault Dwellers.



That statement, more-or-less, depends on what you saw the pre-war Enclave as, if it was made up of the "worthiest" then it was created purely as an organisation to survive the bombs; which I don't believe it was. Arcade all but says that REPCONN built energy weapons for the Enclave before the wa; they could have existed for a long time and whoever was in the Enclave at 2077 survived as opposed to a hand-picked, eugenically perfect, worthy, master-race.

Definately thinking more along the lines of pres Richardson.

Well, In-game at least, the Enclave radio broadcasts were largely ignored, by pretty much, well.....everyone (that mattered anyway, eg. Brotherhood). Nobody knew really what the Enclave eyebots were (those two wastelanders argueing about "what the heck is it?" comes to mind) and they really don't stand out amongst all the other robots (malfunctioning ones at that) roaming the wastes, and they provide excellent recon.

My reasoning for the propaganda was that its purpose was to cause dessention amongst the wastelanders, prehaps to cause people to turn against the Brotherhood protectors, maybe even get some people to act as double agents. It worked on Nathan, he seemed almost willing to die for the Enclave if necessary. (and hey it worked for me, Eden's radio broadcasts were what turned me in favor of the Enclave from the point when I first exited the vault with my character and met an eyebot onwards )

Besides, the brotherhood and everyone else was completely surprised when the Enclave showed up at the purifier, which tells us, that for whatever reason, the broadcasts alerted no-one to the Enclave's presence. Prehaps that speaks to the brilliance of Eden in and of itself. He was able to judge that he would be able to put out propaganda, cause some dissention, and recon the area without alerting the major players to the Enclave's location or even its existance.



That's my point though. He didn't send them. Autumn was the one who commandered a portion of the Enclave's forces and set about fortifying the heck out of it and preparing for a big fight (its also likely that Eden wasn't the one to order the intial occupation , as Autumn was commanding,, and at the very least, Eden didn't want the mission to be anything more than a quick get in get out sabotage and poison mission).



See above.

But your right, the way Bethesda wrote it, he couldn't just simply replace Autumn, and especially not after Autumn went rouge and took a portion of Eden's men with him.




These are my possible reasons why Eden used the LW and not just a regular Enclave soldier:

1. Eden, for whatever reason, didn't want to reveal his identity. As Bethesda wrote it, Autumn was the only one to know Eden was a computer (note I don't like this reason because I don't think it should have matter if he was an AI but meh..)

2, Eden was suspicious of the loyalty of his Enclave troops after Autumn had left (there could still be Autumn "dissenters" left). Eden was also didn't want to use a regular grunt becuase he felt the LW was more capable (after all, look at what all he had done). He also judged that this capable agent would be at least possibly sympathetic to Enclave goals, being from a vault and (he thought) a pure human.

3. Even if the LW failed or betrayed him, what would there be to lose? Eden probably calculated that there was almost no chance the Brotherhood could take back the purifier, which would mean that Autumn would "win" if he didn't act drastically. If Autumn killed the LW and said "ah ah ah Eden, nice try but w're going with my plan...."or the LW betrayed him and turned over the virus to the inferior Brotherhood, nothing would have changed (what could the Brotherood do with the virus? Lyons basically just puts it in his coat pocket and says "SO THATS what he was going to do!"). The Brotherhood would still be marching on the purifier and Autumn would still be trying to (and likely succeed in) holding it.

and just a quick side note (slightly unrelated)

4. I think the virus plan was more dangerous and would have purified an area larger than we assume. Its possible (and im just winging it here) that when the virus was released into the water supply via the purifer (maybe there is something with the purifer that magnifies the viruses killing range/power, after all it uses a GECK, which Bethedsa made into almost a god-in-a-case) that a combination of evaporation/water cycle/atmospheric winds would have meant the virus entered into the atmosphere and poisoned a good sized portion of the east coast. And if the virus was able to enter and contaimate a part of the Atlantic Ocean (closest to DC) via the potomac, then prehaps something would have happend with that as well (evaporation, entrance in atmposphere). Whatever the case, when you put the virus into the purifier, it says the Enclave "wins" on the East coast, that the Encalve was now allowed to thrive, which means Edens plan was a success.




Well in President Eden's own words "the plan itself was sound". I guess he was trying to eminate the greatness of Richardson, but can you blame him? "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

In my mind, Eden was a great President. Not as great as Richardson perhaps (but come on those are some big shoes to fill ) but he was going to get the job done and would have succeed, if not for internal dissention.

Styles my logic (how ever destorted it may be) s that since there is little to no knowledge of the rest of the world we don t know. What did u want them to do swim to the U.S. They r stuck until there is some form of trasportation. May be they had back up plans. Maybe eden is in a mainframe in the Congo and he did know what was happening over there, but just didn t tell you. None of this defies logic or canon. It just defies what you think and the opinion you have formed through the past games. Just because something isn t said doesn t mean its not true. U.S. said there was no area 51 until Russian spy satellites took pics of the place and released them. Now everyone knows its there, but the govnt doesent talk about what they do there. Does that mean they do nothing there, because no one talks about it???

That is the point, you are highlighting your own faults, of course the overseas Enclave couldn't reach the US, which they intended to govern over post-war, that's why worldwide bases don't make sense or exist; it would be stupid to spread themselves out with no way to contact one another, hell, the Enclave could be creating future enemies for themselves from pissed cells in Congo or whatever madness. You could argue almost anything with your logic, to take your example, "maybe Eden is in the Congo," what motive does then Eden have for doing anything? Oh, and the insane communications problems, and that reason for building him in a jungle where any number of maintainence related problems could happen, unless of course some more of the huge Enclave went there.

:facepalm:

That is all.

Please, explain. What is it in my arguement that has warrented a facepalm? God forbid I reasonably critique the theory that the Enclave went all over the world, or that I disagree on the design philosophy that anything can be retconned into existance.

Id rather not explain because it might get a little heated up in here.

I assume then it's some kind of arguement based on old Fallout fans being unwilling to change or whatever then, despite that not being the point. If I can make a lore related point about about how it makes no sense for the Enclave to have an artic lair or whatever, (Rook himself highlighted the main point), then I will demand a reasonable lore related point as an answer; not that we haven't been everywhere in game so, therefore, there could be a bunker full of them in every state, because that doesn't tell me why or how.

The only way its going to get heated "up in here", is if you do this:



and don't explain your reasoning behind it or provide counter points. If you provide reasons why you think an arguement is wrong and in an organized and well-thought way, your argument (while being meticuously picked apart by myself and The Enclave) will be treated courteously.



I'd say that for President Eden, an AI designed specifically to serve in the Raven Rock COG facility, him being in the Congo defies canon and logic.

The Enclave, does not exist in pockets around the world. Even if they did retreat to those remote locations before the war, it doesn't matter now, they would no longer be true Enclave (assuming they survived) if they have lost all contact for 200 years with the high command.

My understanding of the argument "Old Fallout fans are unwilling to change" is that those that often use it, don't give a flying crap about Fallout Canon. IE the past fallout games (Fallout, Fallout 2 and Tactics.) When people such as myself point out flaws in ideas/theories based on canon and simple logic, we get insulted and called elitist. Stuck in the past. Yet we "Old school fans" are the ones asking for something new. Not the same crap over and over and by crap I mean "Brotherood vs Enclave" :banghead:
Three Fallout games point to them being gone as a powerful faction but for Chicago.

I must point out that was what started all this. The OP pointed out that they are in Chicago. I think we can all agree they are. It comes down to people not understanding (Not giving a flying crap) about canon, wanting the Enclave back as a super power.

I also find it funny that those that spit on the originals, calling (or treating) them (as) old and irrelevant are often the ones that cling to what the Wiki says even though what they cling to is not canon and has been proven so or even labeled as not canon on the wiki. If you don't want to play the older games fine but at least respect them and understand what happened in those games is canon!

All the Enclave looked for was that if your "pure strain human". The Enclave didn't consider it's members to be more then the humans of prewar times. there project was to destroy the mutanations of the wastes so that people like the vault dwellers can live without the threat of sad mutants. The Intro of FO2 was them capturing V13 wasn't it? IIRC some where ti was mentioned that the troops where "jumpy"

I had a massive post written but in the end I pressed the wrong [censored] key, to summerise.

You have won me over, Eden (who as far as I am concerned must have ordered Autumn to take the Purifier, or at least by allowing him, and not opposing, he essentially ordered it) had to get Autumn to leave, because would have his coup if Eden tried to sway anyone to administer the Curling-13 FEV; for Eden's plan to work, he had to get Autumn out of Raven Rock, he wouldn't be able to complete a black ops mission to insert the virus as Autumn would coup.

Your arguements for the Lone Wanderer were sound, 4. is actually really interesting and I see no problem; Curling-13 is an extremophile to survive inter-continental winds, so I see nothing in your post that is immplausable.

I will still say however that Eden want to play President a little too much; he can't have known that nobody on any significance wouldn't be alerted by the radio. The eyebots could have performed reconnaissance without blaring Star Spangled Banner, Eden wrote all those eliquent speeches for the maindlanders, whom could not possibly have any ability to understand what things like congress and such were. I think that the arguement that they could create dissent isn't really true, Nathan was a exception but he surely can't have understood what "People comma we the" and such meant, he was just a caravaner who became obsessed; Eden's plan in the end was to kill them all, and if he really didn't perceive much resistance anyway then I just don't see the point. I think he just got off on the whole "Addressing the nation" schtick.

@Styles, agreed

It's kind of like, I want them to be back, but it I don't want them to be back if it breaks canon. I liked them in New Vegas, wish there had been more of Enclave content, same could be said for the Brotherhood. Honestly they were more interesting than the Brotherhood in that game through just game content, but some RPing fixed that! =p Their my nemesis, that I LOVE to hate, haha!

I don't want'em back. They have died twice.

:foodndrink:

Glad I was able to do Eden justice with my argument.



A fair point . I myself as a staunch supporter of Eden, cannot fully explain why Eden decided to administer propaganda, when in the end, his plan called for the deaths of the very muties he was giving such charasmatic speeches too.

I will say though, that the charisma of Eden (charisma from a computer, who knew?) and him "playing the part" of president (with his speechs and such) is part of the reason I support him. When I first played the game, he made me want to support him, and did it without giving me an incentive at all. His theatrics sort of hearken back to the speeches of great Presidents like Franklin Roosevelt and his "fire-side" chats; in other words, speeches given by Presidents to encourage the nation in a time of crisis, and he does a great job of doing that.

So yeah, President Eden 2012.

Yep when I played F3 I wanted to support the Enclave and Eden.

I was really dissapointed in the fact that the amount of stuff on the Enclave radio was very little.

Anywho, if the Enclave do return it should be as a minor faction and as an Autumnist Enclave, to me that seems the only way they could survive.

Styles and Mr. Enclave and the other guy. My ideas r not out of canon I didn t use wiki I used them as a link to the actual stuff I was looking for. I said u killed the Enclave in 2 I said we killed the Enclave in three, but even in your research Styles a few pages back the line still remains. So some rich powerful govnt people along with some rich powerful corp. people having mulltiple plans is illogical??? Some of them starting abroad and working from there as a back up plan is illogical??? I think you just don t want them back is what it is. If that wasn t the case then you d say maybe but I dont think so, because it doesn t defie logic or canon. Even if they did do the jet stream thing it wouldn t kill them because they r pure. I dont think they went to remote sections of the world and started huffing radiation. You re dead set on crushing this idea. I said I d play 1&2 but my pc needs major help. I ve looked for tactics cause it was out on ps 2 ps 3 will play it but its old and hard to find

Not true. Look up the original Curling 13 virus. It was designed to kill any human-based life form which had not been inocculated against its effects (and you would need to be on the Rig for that to happen). In short the original modified FEV virus killed indescriminately, both pures (if not inocculated) and mutants would be dead.

Eden and scientists at Raven Rock (presumably) were the one to modify the FEV-Curling 13 virus to make it so it did not affect pure humans (whether inocculated or not).

Rich and powerful men building a complex it the face of a nuclear war in the Congo is illogical???? Where would u go if you had enough money and power to do what ever??? New York???? No you d do it where no one cared. The ones that went right off the coast of a country that was about to get lit up seems illogical to me, but it happened. I m not trying to put old gaurd or the old games down. The remote locations line still is out there Styles quoted it. So my ideas r not off canon and they are certainly not illogical. OK maybe a couple I threw in were out there, but the main point isn t illogical. Like I said I m all for new bad guys if they r worth shooting. CL are the weakest video game bad guys ive ever seen. I d rather have a logical last effort Enclave power roll then those scrubs cl. Some one new is fine, but give soilders to fight. You can t seriously tell me CL was a strong bad guy. GET ME THE GLOBAL HAWK ill show u.

Yes it is against Canon. I have explained it so many times by now why its against canon. Yes it logical to have back up plan, the Enclave had one. It was known as Raven Rock. Its not logical to send people around the world without having some means for talking with them of getting to them. Fallout 2 the Enclave were going to kill everyhing everywhere so its clear they did not give a crap about the people that took off. Very high chance those that did take off around the world were low level Enclave that just wanted to get out of dodge.

Also the chances of them having large poweful bases is not that likely (its not likely at all). For one thing, America hated the World and the World hated America. So there would be no damn bases to go to at least not any large ones. There was a world wide nuclear war so chances are they did not survive. The odds of it have to be hundred billion to one that there are Enclave out there after 200 plus years of not even seeing America. Having no president and no contact with the Enclave in America or other Enclave around the world is so damn laughable. Even more so that they would come back in force ever again.

Sorry your computer svcks so much it can't even play a ten year old game. I hope someday you can play them.

damn you LT. OK you guys win they r all dead. Except a couple old men and a really small base in Chicago its probably not even there anymore the recording on ed e is a few years old and thosd guys in chicago probably melted into the back drop so they don t get killed. Here s to some walk over enemies like CL. My PC won t even run this site correctly thats why I m on a ps3. Once a pro works it over it will run those games. R.I.P. Enclave you were strong enemys with a nobal cause in your own minds sorry you ll be replaced with CL and dumb stuff like that. Next the gummie bears will be the bad guys instead of you. You had a good run 2 fallouts people named after you on a web site fourm. I ll miss u and your plasma rifles, cover and advance combat strats, great pa, your bravery. You guys were barley ever kers. CL starts cowering as soon as a man goes down. You stood a fought in the face of death. I can only hope that fo will see an enemy that can hold your jock straqes in the future.

R.I.P Enclave :rock:

Good, now this thread can die just like the Enclave an go to hell.

/salute's the 'True' Enclave.

Glad to see you saw the light, concerning them not being around the world :celebration:

You can still support the Enclave, still look back on its glory days with fond memories, but even us Enclave supporters have to face the fact that the Enclave aren't coming back as a major faction, however if the Chicago Outposts hold out then there is a possiblity of them remaning a minor faction in a future. Very much weakend, but alive non-the less.