I highly doubt that it would have though.

The Enclave's soldiers have it ingrained in them from day one that the people that are "outside" are mutants who are nothing better than animals, seeking to kill them at first chance. Autumn's plan probably would have involved military checkpoints and genetic compliance screenings in order to root out the more impure elements.

In th end, I think his plan would have turned into Eden's relatively quickly, he was just hesistant to follow that course of action immediatly. Had he been willing to follow the President's idea from the start, the Enclave would have been in good shape in Fallout 3.

Same with Democracy yet we know that that got a back burner for 30 years. I think that the plan had potential, but it wouldn't have been the Enclave, it would just be some new group founded by US Army deserters and actual traitors.

He was planning to blow up Raven Rock, how did I miss that. I dunno, the Enclave have been used tiem and time and time again, if they had new life breathed inot them by actually establishing a dictatorship or maybe falling back on old world ideals then they might eb cool again in my opinion.




When they fled, eh could have changed thet, by not ingraining in their education system that everyone else is a mutate/deviant or whatever. How would ti nto work thoughh?

Yup, he had the self-destruct codes to Eden's ZAX unit and the whole of Raven Rock just sitting in his trunk as "A last resort" if Eden betrayed him and tried to begin the posioning plan again. The thing is do you remember who the Brotherhood handled the water delivery by just contracting it to Rivet City and then how most of the caravans got pwned by low-level raiders? The plan, I assume, would be to probably establish some kind of permenant, forcefield protected, settlement where mainlanders trade labour for protection, water and a good meal whereas the Enclave would handle administration and defense. Eventually the same thing would happen as in America eventually; the point is though that that is not the Enclave, that would be former members of the Enclave doing what they want, for people who just want the mainland rebuilt and order without the killing, if it ends up being on a smaller scale, then Autumn is probably a good choice. For an Enclave supporter however I cannot possibly understand the reasoning, indeed if you like the Enclave just because of Autumn's plan then that isn't really the Enclave seeing as how Autumn sort-of rebels (but then says later that, whatever you know the stupid [censored] he then says at the Purifier) defect from the Enclave. If you actually care about the people in the Enclave then Autumn actually sends them into the Purifier to enter codes knowing that they will die, source,

Autumn - "The code is 701."
Trooper - "That's a negative sir, another good man dead."

Or something to that effect, his actions against Eden led to any future of the Enclave in that region being destroyed too.



He just has a different opinion on such matters, he believes 1/3rd of the Enclave at Raven Rock are loyal to Autumn, whereas, I believe that most were.

This is the kind of argument that can continue forever.

But really it is classified by two ways of thinking.

Those that think the Enclave are too extreme in their methods <---------> those that think the enclave are doing what needs to be done

You can read through this entire thread, were basically every aspect of the Enclave and other things were debated. But really as stated above its pretty simple.

Well, its not necessarily about the numbers of Autumnists vs. numbers of Edenists, I just don't feel that it would have worked and (like you said) kept the Enclave together as what they are now. I don't think Autumn fully understood what he was doing nor how he was going to implement his plan. He was hesistant to go along with Eden's purification plan, but at the same time he had no problem authorizing genetic screening at checkpoints and killing those who got in his way. I don't really think his soldiers understood what his plan was either, and I doubt they could be made to change their views on wastelanders so quickly.

The Enclave in Fallout 3 seemed like a big frigging mess of confusion. I was scratching my head a bit when I saw sentry bots mowing down tesla armor clad troops :confused:

I'll let Andronicus explain, if he wants too.

lels, enclave tag team

Well he and I share a very similar opinions for the most part until it comes to President Eden.

Oh boy. I'll take a crack at it though. Truth be told, I'm not really sure what happened myself. *cough* bad writing *cough* wanting to somehow get the player involved in a moral! decision *cough* trying to make Raven Rock more interesting by shootin stuff up *cough*

Lore-wise, though (and leaving Bethesda out of this) we can assume a few things when breaking down what I like to refer to as the "Raven Rock Incident".

1. We must, for all intents and purposes (and though I didn't believe this initally) take what happened at the RR to be a "rebellion" against the legitimate President of the United States, John Henry Eden. Thus we see Eden's actions against those Enclave troopers who (for whatever reason) countermanded the President's orders, as "putting down" a insurrection. Those troopers who were killed were, in my mind, guilty of high treason (even if perhaps, they didn't fully know it).

2. With this in mind though, what must be understood is that Autumn still believes that he is being a loyal servant of Eden, even after he as obsconded with a portion of the Enclave forces and publicly countermanded a direct order from the President. When he is at project purity, he makes the statement that he cannot bring himself to "abandon" Eden because the "chain of command must be upheld" (direct quote). If Autumn still thought he was being loyal, then its likely that a large portion if not all of "his" soldiers, thought that they were as well, and thus terming it a "rebellion" may not be the best terminology.

3. What we now have is basically two factions within the Enclave, "Edenists" or those loyal to President Eden (whom I believe to have made up most or a large portion of Raven Rock's personel and thus AAFB's) and the "Autumnists", or those who followed the mad Colonel Autumn and who were being mowed down by Eden's private peacekeeping army and who stood ground at the purifier.

4. The reasons for Autumn's countermanding of orders and his flight out of Raven Rock, are preminently due to the disagreement between he and President Eden over how best to handle the problem of the wastes, Autumn wanted to use the purifier (which is why he tried to defend it) and Eden simply wanted to use the GECK powered purifer to amplify and distribute a lethal virus ala' President Richardson (which, for the Enclave, is really the best option, as when you insert the virus the end slides say the Enclave "wins", that only the Enclave are allowed to thrive.)

What is the Raven Rock Incident then? The answer is: there is no clear answer. Its not quite a full rebellion, as we can see that the "rebel" leader was still loyal to the President, but clearly its not just a domestic dispute or a "poltical party" disagreement (unless the Enclave settle such matters with lasers).

I know I'm not much help, but like I said, I'm not even fully sure what happened.

Except, old sport, that Autumn didn't believe at first that Eden would betray him, was even clutching at straws in denail when confronted with the virus; what I mean is that he was stunned when he saw the virus, meaning that he didn't know that the LW was being called to Eden's Office for that reason right? Therefore, why did he rebel?

Good point, and frankly I don't have answer. I know what you are trying to get at is that he simply was rebelling due to the fact that he hated the President and Eden had done something to make him hate him. However, I don't think that this is the answer either, because of the infamous "chain o' command" quote (and besides, as a loyal follower of Eden I cannot condone that ).

Perhaps he was just a bit pissed off that Eden was allowing a mutant to wanderer Raven Rock freely or perhaps he was just angry with the LW for not giving him the purifer code and wanted to see some blood (just my rough guess as to why he countermanded the order).

You know that he isn't actually insane right ?

You know what I am going to say, but surely you can understand the grumbling of some of the Enclave over the three decade Emergency Power regime. At the end of the day, from his audio-diary, we know that he didn't explicitally trust that Eden would keep his word; maybe his disbelief is that Eden would stoop as low as to hire externally, especially concerning the nature of Eden and Autumn's disputes. Surely that fits all of the bills.

Your post is purely opinion, For instance in my opinion Eden could nto be the legitimate President and therefore could put down that insureection, as it was not an insurection but was the will of teh Enclave.

Except that we can argue perfectly valid reasons why he was the legitimate President and in any event the Enclave functions as the US Government, it follows all of the same rules; whilst I don't like Eden that much, the wil of the people doesn't make Autumn anything more than a deserter, unless there is a sufficient arguement that Eden needed to be disposed of and was dangerous etc.

Likewise I could argue perfectly valid reasons as to why he is not the legitimate President.

Also your litte thing about Autumn is just a deserter because the will of the people is nto enough to trump him. Then in that case the entire American government is a sham because it was the will of the people that they no longer be ruled by the Crown, thjerefore the Americans are just deserters, as is their entire government. Again that si opinion an so is your post about Autumn beign a deserter.

Yes I know he isn't. He's quite sane.

However, he is apparently, quite emotionally conflicted.



Well like you said, there is no indication that he knew that Eden was going to ask the LW to insert the virus and even if he did have a major problem with it, I'm not sure why he did. I also forgot in my previous post that Eden (and presumably Autumn) believed that the LW was a pure human, so really, it shouldn't have been that big of a deal to let him see the President, for all he knew, the President was just asking him to join the Enclave (which is basically what Eden did, he just asked that he insert the virus to prove his loyalty though).

As to the idea that the Enclave troops must have had grumblings about Eden's time in office, yes I could see how thats a possiblity (not necessarily what I believe but I recognize that it is a possiblity). However I must say that if indeed that was the case, then they chose the time to rebel against Eden quite poorly. If that was the only reason, I think they would have done this sort of thing along time ago. Why conviently pick the time when the plan to insert the virus was about to begin? To me that suggests that the two events have to be related.

What were they going to do without Eden though? Turn to a military commander who had no authority to be President and which would have resulted in miltiary rule? If they had just waited about a day or so, Eden's plan would have meant the victory of the Enclave, there is really no denying that. Instead they chose to rebel (if they indeed did rebel because they were tired of Eden's emergency powers) against the rightful President of the United States because they just couldn't take him any longer. I firmly believe that Eden would have gave up his powers when the time was right, and even if he didn't (again I'm sure he would) there's not much Eden could have done after his plan had succeeded and the Enclave were rebuilding their government and a new election was needed. My belief is that, even if Eden was for all intents and purposes a dictator, sometimes a benevolent dictatorship is needed (such as House). If they were so caught up in the idea that a President can't serve for more than two terms, that they rebelled against him and directly caused the downfall of the Enclave, then I am ashamed to call those people Enclave soldiers. Traitorous bastards.

(end of rant against Autumnists , sorry kind of stood on my soapbox there )

Hardly, it is very likely that as the Great War became closer and more aparently that the pre-war government, perhaps even Enclave proposed, created methods to allow a relatively small amount of people to make crucial decisions. The Enclave could have exploited these and Admended the Constitution out of recognician



What? They had declared themselves their own seperate nation, not that rebelled and tried to kill the King and then become the new King of the UK.

You summed it up rather nicely. thankyou.

Oh and btw, Lone Wanderer grew up in a Vault. Hes not a mutant; he would've survived FEV. EDIT: I lied :thumbsup:

(unless of course, you did the plot holing side quest "The Wasteland Survival Guide" where it is possible to acquire a mutation.)

Incorrect. He was born outside of the vault, which is why you are killed if you drink the poisoned water in Broken Steel. He was a mutant to the Enclave (Not that Eden nor anyone else knew that though, they assumed he was pure).

The Lone Wanderer was born to two wasteland parents and was, therefore, not a pure human; hence him dying from the FEV in the water.

I'll repsond to you in a sec Lt.

No he would not have survived. The Enclave Virus killed everyone not inoculated. Was the Lone Wanderer inoculated? His parents were not prime normals. He would be unclean!

So the joke is on him. Helping the Enclave would still result in his death

Oh god I forgot about that! My bad

Impossible, they knew James worked on Project Purity.

As well the virus kills pure strain humans, that is why you need the innoculation.