agree to disagree

Why? He's right, that was why the Vaults were so important to him, because Vault Dwellers were not exposed to radiation and therefore retained high brain functions.

Hehehe, higher brain functions. I really don't see a difference between the functions of Wastelanders and Enclave. Anyways since there is basically no radiation left, and no FEV I think that there might not be as large an effect as there was.

What are you talking about? I was talking about the Master needing untainted humans.

Sorry, I was confuzzled, I guess I was right.

What is all this about brain function?

Simply put. The more untainted the human that is dipped in FEV is, the more intelligent they are as a super mutant.

Which is why the master wanted vault dwellers to dip.

Ok.. this is all in relation the the enclave disregarding anyone in the wastes. as being impure
I bring up this line of thinking, because there were peopple that were simpley walking around in the wasteland (maybe the came from vaults, maybe they ddint- its moot) that the master was able to use for making Super Mutants... all this does is show that the enclave were mis-informed on who was or was not "pure" This is my only popint. Remember the masters leiutennant didnt come tot he conclusion that vault dwellers would be ideal, until after randoms picked up from the wastes were dipped..

The master was not able to immediately discern.. how would the enclave be able to? They wouldnt.


of course vault dwellers would be ideal.. thres no hit or miss there in relation to impurity- per capita you get more bang for your buck.
But i dont assume that to mean that the only ones worthy were from vaults- because a lot of who would be vault dwellers who were mistaken for common wastelanders would ahve been released from their vaults on average 15 years after the bombs fell, when there would still be a lot of radioactivity about.


simply put, the master was able to find pure people wandering the wastes

the enclave wanted to kill everyone not in their ranks, even those that were indeed pure.

It's not a point, it's a fact; I don't try and hide that Richardson's Enclave were largely uninformed on what the wasteland was like; even Richardson is operating under the idea that large swathes of the mainland are radioactive hellholes. At the end of the day though, the Enclave's plan is largely born from logistical reasons rather than simple racism; the racism just comes off stronger because when speaking to them you have always been an mainlander, therefore they treat you as such, besides it's massively ingrained into them, national hate figures and all.

:P its a point that i was making to Andaius, orginally when he was saying that all mainlanders were descended from those that had been exposed for mutated FEV and Rads. .

The difference between Harry and Lou is basically what a tainted human and a pure one would be.

@The Enclave, just a quick question: Are you British? Your gripe about sulphur/sulfur got me curious. For the record, I do believe sulphur is right.

If you actually read Richardson's dialouge you'll see that to him, and by extension the Enclave, is ultimately motivation by the survival of humanity, with them being Americans largely irrelevant.

{262}{prs49}{Never. Part of the president's job is to make the tough decisions. A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity. Humans will prevail.}

{265}{prs50}{You can't stop it. The tests are complete and the toxin is ready for release. In hours, your villagers will be the first to make the ultimate sacrifice. The other mutants will follow. An unfortunate footnote in the continuing history of the human race.}

{267}{prs51}{Oh, I don't relish this decision. If there was another way- but there isn't. No price is too high for the survival of the human race. If you were human, you'd feel the same way.}

{277}{prs56}{You might find that tougher than you think. If you do, I'll go to my reward knowing that I died a patriot and a servant of humanity.}

{287}{prs60}{Why, against the F.E.V. toxin, of course. Damn brave sacrifice you and the other members of Vault 13 are making. On behalf of the United States government, and all humanity, I thank you. Now, we better get you back to your ward.}

{291}{prs61}{So what? If your kind is allowed to flourish it'll mean the end of the human race as we know it. We can't allow radioactive freaks to squeeze humans into extinction.}

{298}{prs64}{I assure you, I'm quite sane, as is everyone on the Project. We're dedicated to the salvation of the human race. You can call single-minded dedication to a cause madness, I suppose, but if so, it's divine madness.}

{304}{prs66}{As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.}

Even at times when he mentions America it is usually in relation to humanity in general, eg, 277 & 287 where he adds and humanity. He believes that the Enclave is saving the human race, what you make of that is up to you but the Enclave certainly isn't scheming about how it's now going to rule the world simply for some power fantasy.

Actually, as I talked about in the Jetstream thread, it's very much about destruction not survival.

Specifically, the destruction of the rest of humanity (irradiated or not) does little to make the Enclave more likely to survive. The only purpose that is derived from it is that THEIR definition of humanity is the only one which survives. I've read dike Richardson's dialogue on many occasions and it boils down to their belief that the only humanity which remains is on the Oil Derrick.

The issue, primarily, is that the Enclave doesn't want to deal with any of the mainlanders or attempt to reintegrate them into the United States. They believe they've been hopelessly compromised by radiation and are now "mutants" that are unworthy of survival. The questionability of this is immaterial to whether their plan would WORK or whether they could rebuild humanity on their own.

However, there's little truth to the idea that it would help their survival other than killing the Chosen One before he blew them up for kidnapping his tribe. As Broken Hills shows, the issue is whether or not humans and inhumans can survive in peace but also whether or not they benefit from such arrangements.

not really other pure humans would survive besides Enclave personal. The Vaults would still be safe. the after math would just mean all surviving human would be of the stock from prewar humanity.

The moment they left the Vaults, the moment the Pre-War stock would begin to change. Even so, I don't think the subtle changes the Enclave are so obsessed about matter in the long run. The Enclave's focus on it seems to be almost an excuse to avoid dealing with the possibility of other humans than themselves and the almost insurmountable task of rebuilding the United States with them in charge.

The Enclave had personnel at Navarro, did they change? We can assume not or they wouldn't be there, therefore, simple exposuere, as of 2242, does not affect you. The later sentence I have already pointed out and agreed, to an extent; the Enclave is totally out of it's depths, however, it also believes that it is in-charge being the official remnant of the government - from their perspective. They also believe that directly interacting with the mainland population on the level of rebuilding would lead to their destruction via numerical pressure.

Also, I have replied to you on the previous page.

Whether or not the Enclave believe they are doing the right thing is irrelevant. Humanity is far more than the DNA in your body.
Humanity left the Enclave when they decided to dedicate the vaults to social experiments, causing countless "pure" humans to suffer horrendous fates that the Enclave would never allow tit's own members to suffer..These fates were senseless in the truest meaning of the word. Any possible remaining humanity was lost when they decided to release FEV into the the atmosphere to kill "all" humanoid life that wasn't inocculated.

Actually our opinions are irrelevant as we have the ability to see everything.

Condeming the Enclave because of the actions of the pre-war Enclave is just unfair; you put pure in quotes as if to call the Enclave hypocrits yet don't think that the pre-war Enclave didn't give a [censored], they also didn't think about people being pure and non-pure. The Enclave of 2242, as far as I am concerned, were largely the result of the Old World bastards; maybe their kids or grand kids wanted to see the mainland, and so they created the regime to keep the Enclave under their control. They want to go out, tell them it's radioactive and dangerous; then the Old World lot die and all that's left is a self-perpetuating regime built on hatred and fear of the outside world. When they do go out in 2170's they see the Master's ronin causing mayhem and to them it must seem as though nothing had changed.

My point is that Richardson is the Project of his environment, as was his father, and his father all the way back to whenever the Enclave decided that population control was a necessaty. You can say that the Enclave lack humanity, but they would have no reason to know that they did, they think that they are in the right; it all goes back to the first Enclave, they are the one's to blame, Richardson's Enclave are slaves in a sense.

No no your still not getting it. "humanity" changed due to the aftermath of the great war. the FEV and the High radiation, both of which are now gone. So no some one walking out of the vault wouldn't suddenly become a mutant, unless he walked right into a VAT of FEV of an unshielded nuclear reactor core.

Humanity is not based on DNA or being a mutant. I can completely understand teh Enclaves thinking, I just dont agree with it. The people on the mainland are still humans.

Humanity isn't subjective in the conext that i am talking about and it doesnt matter if its great war era, or in game era. Placing your fellow man in vaults that are designed in some cases to end lives, or drastically alter them against their will in a anegative way and whats more, for no reason is inhumane, just as inhumane as the idea of ending all human life thats not part of a particular group. It is genocide- the antithesis of humanity.

We cannot go into politics on the board, but you know there are historical groups that did these same things and the fact that they were largely carried out by giving a false sense of superiority or authority through propaganda, doesnt make it iany better, even if those that put out the proagande or those subjected to it believe in it.

Then I don't understand you point. Saying the Enclave - as a whole - is inhumane is like saying that it's evil; perfectly justifable. Yeah, people have done that in real life for things like power, authority, resources; the Enclave believes that it is saving the human race, not making it's own country more powerful. I see a difference in that.

as i said, them believing in what they are doing has no relevance.

let me ask you this. if the enclave were to keep to themselves, reproductively, would they not accoplish the same goal of assuring the continuation of pure-bred humans?
In this isntance them "saving the human race" and "making its own country more powerful" are one int he same as they claim their oil rig nation is all thats left of humanity.
For them to return to the mainland and proclalim that they are the rightful owners and that the actual ihhabitants are not human (some of which are pure) and must be destroyed is most certainly an attempt to assert an authority or power over another group of humans.

Whatever, I believe that their actual intent does have relevance.


Technically yes it is, by killing everyone else they do, in-effect; but you don't think that there's a difference between committing genocide and thinking your saving the human-race, however incorrect or delued, or doing it purposefully to become the sole ruler of the world? They, ultimately, aren't motivated out of a desire for control but rather because they believe that they are the only chance that humanity can even exist without getting destroyed by the mainlanders; a motivation which I do not believe they are responsible for having due to the society created, and then perpetuated, by the Enclave from 2077.

Besides they don't claim that, there's nothing to suggest that the other Vaults won't be brought into the Enclave.

See, it is all about control. controlling the very definition of what is human in this case. They desire to control "human life as we know it"
Its not along the lines of difference between committing genocide and saving the human race.. Saving the human race could be the excuse or reason for committing genocide, just as real world examples of past weren't necessarily about committing genocide for genocides sake, but that genocide was the means to an end. I understand that thats their belief, but them insinuating that their belief is is lthe law of the land only further illustrates that it is a control issue.

as for the vaults and extra- oil rig pure-breds and so on..
Its not as if the vault project were the only vaults world wide, you know.
people could have had their own back yard vaults. could have come from the vaults and intergrated themselves intot he fabric of the re-emerging society.
perfectly pure humans that they are willing to destroy (or at the least dont care to acknowledge) because they want their particular clan of oil riggers to be the only people.