nah, stim packs are supposed to give you HP back.. its their SCIENCE! properties, even if theyre are waaay too many of htem in F3..
besides ive got a stealth suit
I am just saying that while it was in game for entertainment value, i dont think that LP was the only possible solution to that problem.



cool, i havent actually got to the end of F2 yet. I am slacking on that one.
but you know what i mean. if you pride yourself on the last hope for humanity, youd figure youd not take any chances... hardwired or flawed

woulda been quite the kicker if they had released the FEV and then the rig went into runaway becasue of a maintenance issue.

Not even close, limited resources remember? you'll just get the rich and connected controlling those and everyone else gets shipped into slums that in turn changes into infighting and unrest over the differences. It would be like Vault city, or Vega all over the NCR.

already answered that, to an extent. ^

How can society ever more forward if a select group of people just hold on to all the tech? What you just described is what the Enclave/Brotherhood of steel does. they tech hoard while everybody else lives in squalor...

They still pretend to be the U.S. government. I saw what they did at the begining of fo2 haveing those people open their vault, and as the innocent unarm people waved a Enclave trooper mowed them down with a mini gun. They can say a name or not they are still pure evil misguided or not.

Some of the troopers are the only ones that may reallt be misguided, but anyone that knows the over all plan should parish in flames.

To not think of the humans left as humans is not good. Then to want to kill them all is pure evil.

They should have studided them to find out what the long term effects would be, then came out and acted like a real government instead of some homicidal maniacs.

With there vast knowledge and tech, people would have loved them. They could have really helped rebuild. Instead they are more than likely gone for the horrible acts they commited.

Facist derp.

I really dont feel like reading all four pages of bickering but I will give my opinion to all of this.

Do I think that everybody in the Enclave is bad? No, but I do believe that their overall mission which is basiclly genocide, is bad. I've stated before that if the main goal of the Enclave was to only wipe out animals that were mutated, even super mutants that would be one thing but to kill every mutation, when almost everyone outside of the Enclave has at least some sort of mutation? Nope you just crossed the line and I just cant get behind that.

Yea, I basically just fought it out with some of the forum's most illustrious Enclave [censored]... I think in the end I must've changed their minds about them a LITTLE bit..

No not at all. :shrug:

Sorry to disappoint you.

Sorry if this is the law student in me, but I think Intent is a big factor as to whether someone is a "Traitor" or a "Patriot". The members of the enclave are Patriots, because in their minds they are. They might have misguided views on humanity and America, but they're not traitors in the mind.

Thats not to defend any of their plans or actions.

awwww.

you know what I just noticed? combining the words fan, and boys on this forum is censored. and if you type in the singular version of that word, it is automatically changed to "really devoted fan"

sorry, off topic.

But I can see why you guys like them, because they are patriotic and whatnot. But you have to acknowledge that they are a bit extreme and their actions are pretty terrible.

You should try making a Yakov Smirnoff inspired joke... I think those still get changed too.

.


I was wondering what word you had put in your above post, I thought it was a more serious insult, thanks for clearing that up.



We do.

We know that they are not good people, we recognize that. But I think that in the end, they are the best bet when it comes to rebuilding the world, its whether or not you can agree that their ends justify their means, and thats simply a personal decision.

But, ah nevermind.

No need fill another 5 pages of argument exactly the same to the one I just had with "The Enclave" (username)

Yah this kind of sums it up.

There views are skewed and not what they should be or could be.

They don't pretend anything, is it not likely that they admended the Constitution before the war so that after the war they could easily be the legitimate government? Besides, you know who else gunned down innocent people? Lyon's BoS & the NCR.



Well they all knew of it, Judah Kreger can say whatever [censored] he likes but he fought for the Project.



What is this "vast knowledge and tech" that makes the Enclave so powerful, the mainlanders have access to plenty of pre-war knowledge, like the Followers, and tech-wise the Enclave can purify it's own water and grow food... oh off course you mean military tech right? The only tech that the Enclave have fatastically better than anyone else is guns, armour and Vertibirds; so what you actually want is for the Enclave to serve as the mainlands elite military, good job that the Enclave is only an army right :laugh:.

Look people, stop saying "best tech" because that fact has only ever applied to things with military applications, only the Vertibirds could possibly have some logistical function transporting supplies and the NCR, in it's wisdom, uses it to chauffeur the President around in Bear Force One. The Enclave is more than just an army and do you really think that President Tandi or any of the elected officials will listen to the Enclave?

Besides, who does the Enclave help? Why should one faction be better off with the Enclave's tech than another? Except that the Enclave is pretty much surrounded by the NCR, again, the NCR whom stomp on everything they can, regardless of motivation, the NCR whom have even cut off ties with the Followers of the Apocalypse. You want the Enclave to serve as their personal army? That is essentially what you are saying if you had actually thought properly about that statement. The NCR seek to absorb everything, the Enclave would be destoyed like the Brotherhood. House too, he has no gripe with the NCR yet they seek to remove him and take over themselves and you know what, the NCR citizens are pretty [censored] smug about thier "Sixth state of the Union."

Do the NCR have to kill the Followers before people slow the [censored] down and stop looking past things face-value instead of just saying "Democracy derp".

Their intent was to take control of the United States Government and run it themselves. They operated in the shadows for god only knows how long. They planned it out. They were the ones behind the vaults. Its not like they panicked and ran to the rig and hoped for the best. No, they somehow knew things were coming to an end (maybe they helped bring about it) and they went to the rig with all their plans in place. They left and did not tell America. Did nothing to stop it. They did nothing to save the rest of the government, letting them and almost 400 million Americans die. World came to and end and they said "ok people, were in charge now!" I bet alot of champagne was opened after the two hour long WW3.

To me that means they had motive: Being incharge The means: Unlimited government budget and people in high places. There is plenty of evidence to show premeditation and deliberation. They are traitors, just very successful ones and those they betrayed are no longer around to punish them.

By Shadow Government they probably already ran it, they didn't seek anything. They probably knew it was coming like House did; if they were as selfish and evil as you think do you really think that they would trade all of their money, property and anyone outside of their immediate family for a bunkbed on the Oil Rig so that some later generation would conquer the world? Some motivation. The rest of the government survived in absolutely no form, without the Enclave's help, there has never been an instance of a pre-war institution surviving the Great War; the largest possible organisation by pre-war authorities was the German Town Refugee Camp, where are all of the thousands of other authorities? They did nothing and were instantly destroyed, good job that the Enclave did something really ins't it?

"I bet a lot of champagna was opened"... Christ. "Congratulations people, now we get to live on an Oil Rig! Remember your country ranch and your sister-in-law? Those are ash now. Hahahaha!" Got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard, from you of all people too.

"Shadow Government" we have been down this road before. I get it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u9JAt6gFqM Yeah they saved their families but they did crap all to save anyone elses. "The rest of the government survived in absolutely no form." Gee that would not happen to be because the Enclave did not share the information about the END OF THE WORLD would it? America was winning the war against China. They had no reason to believe that WW3 was around the corner. Enclave knew but they did not share. No they went to the Rig. Imagine what America could have done if they had months of advanced warning. The lives saved. Maybe they could have saved at least a hundred thousand in some type of underground vault system, oh wait the Enclave turned most of them into nightmare fun houses.

They wanted power. They were an extremest group with radical beliefs. They let hundreds of millions die. Like I said I they were happy about it. They wanted it to happen. The planned for it and hoped for it. A world free of communism/socialism and the impure!


They are traitors, they did such a great job that those they betrayed arn't around to punish them.

Edit: does not mean I hate the Enclave or think they are Evil. I just don't think they are a heroic group that dusted themselves off and continued on the noble spirit of America.

Nor do I, the prewar Enclave are above redemption, I believe that by the time of Richardson, due to propaganda, that they were though.

I finished the quest once again to re-unite the Enclave remants again a couple hours ago. This time I was struck by Arcade talking about Orion Moreno. "After we had left Navarro, looking up at Moreno he said Kiss America good bye boys."

If there was any legitimacy in what the Enclave was doing, it died along with the Rig.

I do love Moreno and every line that magnificent bastard said, all of the remnants should be like him. But yeah, you won't catch me supporting Eden.

1. A tunnel leading from right in front of the Citadel's gate to the Purifier's basemant.
2. Last time I checked, people can swim, and the ass end of the Enclaves little lightshow was wipe open to the world.
3. Using either of those, it concludes with all of us seeing what happens when a murdering, goosestepping pseudo-nazi with delusions of grandeur in a tin can ends up in the crosshairs of the LW's gauss rifle.

Lyon's BoS: Cite sources. If you say "The Pitt" you exhaust your supply of hyperbole points for the year.

NCR: Bitter Springs was an intelligence FUBAR of epic proportions. The whole situation was so packed in and screwed that there's actually nobody that can be blamed.

And, strange, I don't seem to remember either of the above mentioned powers embracing genocide as a political tool.

Amusingly, I'd classify them as a tribe.

The United States government ceased to exist the moment that four years passed without anyone voting for a new Constitution and Senate. The Enclave might have legally made some mumbo jumbo with their original founders but I think that the spirit of the Constitution would be completely subverted by the idea of the Enclave being in any way the legitimate government of the USA after they ceased to have any contact with the survivors of the Great War.

They're a tribe just like the Brotherhood of Steel.

I do think Colonel Autumn might have made a legitimate and effective ruler of the Capital Wasteland even if he wasn't as gentle and grandfatherly as Elder Lyons (who was apparently meant to be a Good Karma Vault Dweller anologue). Would it have been bad? Probably in terms of personal freedoms and such but the rebuilding process would have continued.

[/I think that your desire to be ever-so-witty has made you neglect any reasoning, the Brotherhood and even Boomers are considered a tribe, dispite being relitaverly advanced, because they have little leadership and organisation; even then, what they do have is concentrated on military and battle.

The BoS have three castes in their society, soldiers, people who repair soldiers stuff and then people who make it better, the Boomers operate on some loose roster and are led by the oldest, therefore wisest, and someone who just serves as "Captain of the Guard". Conversly the Enclave have both military and civilian castes, aren't fixated on military endevours (in-fact they want to let science do all of the hard work) and have a complicated system of command and order. Size doesn't really factor into it, niether does nationalism really because that seems to apply to most of the large factions we have seen in the game.




The Enclave wouldn't be the legitimate government, the Enclave is not a government organisation and probably didn't exist outside of a name; any changes would probably have been about massively reducing the number of Senators and such needed to make Amandments to the Constitution rather than simply adding "And the Enclave shall succeed the government" or whatever.



Colonel Autumn is a poor leader, he was going to blow up Raven Rock, the place which had provided the Enclave the ability to manufacture power armour and keep them alive for three decades, and then base all of his operations from maybe Adams Airforce Base or something. Again, in the Purifier if you speech him he starts saying that you must have stolen the FEV because Eden had given Autumn his word that the plan wouldn't be carried out; so he didn't rebel because of Eden's plan. Yeah, I won't deny that it may have worked however, a military dictatorship and maybe a Vault Cityesque two-class system; I would prefer Richardson's Project when it comes to rebuiulding the world but whatever.