So one thing that's come to me is this, how would you classify The Enclave? First off, if all you can say is 'Evil derp' then get out.

Logically though, The Enclave, while not a true official government CoG (Being more along the lines of a Shadow Government entity), Wouldn't it be fair to class the Enclave the same as any other militant 'for my country' cell? I mean, the only real difference is that The Enclave had agents within the US Government, hence they had more capital to do their wishes.

Secondly, can we truly call them Patriots? I mean, they are meant to be doing the good of the USA? Yet, wastelanders, lest their family came to the US post The Great War, are born on American soil, if the Enclave truly was a legitimate government as they claim to be, wouldn't they make an attempt to save their people? yet, they wish to go about in a Holocaust similiar fashion, IE, kill what isn't our definition of 'pure' and save our perfects. They've tried twice, to commit genocide, yet to no avail, this should show them that the fates are against their designs.

I'm to tired to keep thinking on lore just now, but wouldnt it be more fair to call them misguided traitors than patriots? I mean, they THINK their goals are for the good of America (The non-politicians anyway), yet in truth, they go against the foundations of the United States and it's rights of citizenship and humane treatment.

Anyway, It's 12:05 A.M. here, I'll come back when I've rested :laugh:

I see them as Misguided Traitors. (Let the War being :flamethrower: )

I get the idea that they are the "legitimate government" in that they were the puppet masters so technically that makes them the government.

They use constitutional emergency powers which in spirt arn't meant to be a permanent thing for their own goals.

They worked and plotted in the shadows. They turned a project to save American lives and twisted it into the what we know as the vault experiments. Some how they knew the end was coming and yet they did nothing to help the 400 million Americans. They did not even tell the rest of the government. Insted they went to the safety of the Rig. They let 400 million Americans die, they let the Government die. They are a radical shadow government that usurped power for themselves.

They are a disgrace to the U.S. flag, and they know it. That s why they don t wear it on their pa.

I look at them as more like, "Misguided Patriots."

Instead of helping the wastes, They basically just strode around with plasma rifles killing everybody; When they could've easily helped James in Project Purity instead of just mindlessly murdering. The whole final solution idea to eliminate mutations is unjust anyways. Think of the good they could've done; with their Vertibirds and seemingly endless armies.

They are also evil because of the crazy Vault experiment they funded.

Same thing happened in Fallout 2. They would rather commit mass genocide of nearly every living person than help them and slowly try to eliminate mutations over time.

Oh yea, and they were ultimately proved incredibly weak. Their entire organization and all of their armies were virtually brought down by two people (Chosen One and Lone Wanderer)

There is a lot of better ways to fix America than genocide. Enclave never figured that out.

I wouldn't call them traitors, they think what they're doing is right, but they are misguided. They think all mutated people are lesser beings, thry attempt to kill all of them. They aren't traitors, just ex-puppe tmasters with messed ideas.

Evil Derp.

They are genociders. Killing their own people!

Neither. A better definition of the Enclave is absolute [censored] monsters. These are the people that follow the same methods and means as that that courted nuclear armageddon in the first place, turned the US into a dystopic hell, lied to and betrayed their own people and embraced the vault experiments.

Let me reiterate that last one. They designed, developed, implemented and executed the calculated murder of countless thousands of innocent people that had placed their trust in their leaders to safeguard and protect them as was the duty of said leaders to do. They outright betrayed that trust for their own sick amusment and "societal studies." Great studies like intentionally making faulty equipment so doors didn't close, water systems failed, or pumping psychotropic chemicals into environmental systems, or driving a whole population of artists and musicians insane in some half assed attempt at a supersoldier program. They pumped raw FEV virus into holding cells containing men and women that hadn't volunteered for a dammed thing other than survival. The Enclave is the organization that not only made such vile things possible, they're the ones that implemented them. They're the ones that want to do it again on a global genocide scale to enable a new rise to power.

All the Enclave supporters will look completely past this and state that it's all for the greater good, really, and that since their population is indoctrinated and they hand out a few bottles of water it's all good.

Yeah. Right. Enclave supporters are the same people that like the Galactic Empire, and for the same reasons. They think the uniform is cool. And probably think that GRIMDARK is the only good way to write a story.

Thank you for summerising, and not invalidating, all of my points into one line; as if that means you can get away with not properly commenting on them. Seeing as how I mentioned the Vault Experiment in all of my arguements.

As far as I am concerned your the guy who said, "they'll just continue inhuman experiments and enslave the survivors"; you have absolutely zero credibility concerning the Enclave's motives and social structure.

The pre-war Enclave whom created the Vault Experiments are dead, the Enclave as an organisation is completely different, they aren't a ahadow government, they have no power; hell the Enclave was never official, never a real organisation and, in essence, no longer exists. They was sufficient arguement in Fallout 2 to suggest that the organisation was never even called the Enclave, the President never even says the word once. Only Bethesda properly called them the Enclave and added the [censored] stupid Vault 87 & 92'; which aren't social experiments but actual ones and should never have existed. In fact your arguement makes zero sense, the Enclave bere not a single resemblance to the pre-war Enclave.

It's like saying you hate the American Government because of slavery, or the British Government because of Colonial era crimes.

@Rook, see above! Until F3, nobody refered to themselves as the Enclave, it was primarily the name of the Oil Rig and maybe there was some confusion and all of the sprites got named 'Enclave', not a single one mentions that name in context to another person or organisatoin. In Fallout 2 the Power Armour was said to have, "A strange insignia", or something to that affect, it was F3 thath created the Enclave logo.

Well the original Enclave was a cabal of the US' most powerful Military industrial and corporate people as well as a chunk of the legit government as well. So I'd say they have a legitimate claim to being "the real" US government. As for there views, I can very much see where they're coming from. Richardson even claimed that if there was another way he would consider it, and that he was sorry it has to happen. The Enclave took a long term view on how to return to pre-war USA ideals, and lifestyle. They took a long look at what was going on in the mainland and recognized the threats the FEV mutations have on the world. So they enacted there plan to wipe them all out in one fell maneuver instead of having to suffer centuries of turmoil and strife trying to fight them or integrate them. They also recognize the danger mutation would have on future generations of humans. they wanted to protect there populates (pure strain humans) so that meant dooming all others aside from Vault dwellers still in vaults and there people.

If there plan worked, They would have rapidly retaken the mainland opened up the control vaults and most likely would have rebuilt as much as NCR is at the time of NV just as fast. With nothing to stop them and there advanced tech and know how they would have been well on there way to reshaping the mainland back into the good ol' USA.

The Enclave- It sounds as if you're trying to whitewash them by denouncing the word Enclave. They know they are the Enclave, why would they need call each other what they know themselves to be? Also, their terminal in the cutscene, their floor on the entryway. The very fact they named themselves 'Enclave' shows they are being elitest. Richardson just as so. Their very name and what they are show's what they've done. They spent millions if not billions of Pre-War dollars to ensure their members survive, then when the legitimate government collapsed, they installed themselves, or in their minds eye at least, as the legitimate United States government, this is proven by both Richardson and Eden addressing themselves as President of the United States of America.

Are you implying that there were two split ideals of The Enclave? Because seems to make the Enclave doomed to fail from infighting. I think the high level politicians were aware, the citizens were merely puppets.

In regards to Vault 87 and 92. 92 is perfectly sound in theory, the problem was that The Overseer started implanting the combat suggestions to fast to quick to soon. Likely cause their minds to go into a sort of mental overload. 87 suits the sinister and double crossing motives of the Enclave in the Pre-War days. The way I interpret Vault 87 is some of the military officials in the Enclave stole some FEV and used 87 since after all, all of Vault Tecs CEOs, the only ones knowing the Vault's true purpose, who'd stop them? The unknowing government? Vault 87 is very rational to understand, the problem is Bethesda explained what happened to the Vault without explaining how the FEV got there. And yes 'blah blah blah, there is a Military holotape in Fallout 1 that says FEV is to be shipped to Mariposa blah blah blah.' But honestly, FEV was not an Enclave experiment, it was a top secret Government experiment, when the Enclave stole the sample and put it in Vault 87, they had their own chance to carry on the experiments somewhere else.

I don't try to whitewash anything, why would I try and convince myself? The Vault Experiments, Vault 13, the FEV, all things which I have considered; I am not trying to convert people to the Church of the Enclave, I am not even trying to convince people that the Enclave are good, even I don’t believe that they are good. I am trying to dispel ignorance and sometimes insanity which surrounds them, hell it would be an interesting social experiment in itself to see why people don’t look at things objectively. The terminal in the cutscene and the mark on the floor further cement my belief, it says ‘Welcome to the ENCLAVE’, the floor says ENCLAVE and the Communications Officer says, “ENCLAVE here”. At no time do people within the Enclave refer to themselves or the organisation as such, only the Oil Rig itself on occassion. Even the citizens say, "God Bless America."

Look back through the history of Fallout, how many pre-war institutions have survived outside of the Enclave, none; the largest effort by pre-war authorities was in German Town and how long did that last? Really what we have seen of the Enclave indicates that Poseidon Energy bore most of the financial brunt; and even then it was real installations which could just be easily converted. We have heard nothing of any National Guard, Governors, whatever, your American you know your own governmental bodies; we have seen not a single event of any of these surviving. Without the Enclave, the government wouldn’t have survived in any form. Of course they saved themselves before the war, the pre-war Enclave have no excuses, they usurped legal authority for private endevours. That is the point, the pre-war Enclave were in it for themselves, or maybe they had some pinultimate objective for the US; the post-war Enclave have been brought up on the patriotism angle for so long that that is the common consensus.



I am saying that the pre-war Enclave is, in no-way, anything like the post-war; there are no luxuries to hoard on the Oil Rig, no real power, no contracts to make sure your friends get, no private industries of anykind. Richardson isn't sat around thinking, "Christ I wish I could perform a political assassination like before the war..."; the idea of burning one of his fellow Americans, now, would probably horrify him.

I would agree that the higher politicians were aware of propaganda, but the sinister view of propaganda, as a means of population control, aren’t really applicable when the people doing the propaganda believe it themselves; it is the lie which has become the excepted truth by all. Richardson is in no too minds about the Project, whilst his admittance that a mainland-Enclave pact might work for a while is clear cut proof that he is above propaganda, it does not make him immune. They have grew up for generations on the stuff, it is the common consensus; unless your suggesting that the Enclave is in-fact a hereditary dictatorship, were-in, the leadership is rigged and are brought up to be above the lies. I will discredit this right now by saying that, in his personal notes, Richardson was reminding himself to plug for re-election; I see no reason to believe that Richardson would lie, he’s a patriot to what he has been brought up to believe.



The Vaults are social experiments, not literal ones, as Richardson said:

“The vaults were set up to test humanity. Some had not enough food synthesizers, others had only men in them, yet others were designed to open after only 6 months. They each had a unique set of circumstances designed to test the occupants.”

What part of 87 & 92 are tests? They are literal experiments which had nothing to do with social implications; besides, if you are suggesting that the Enclave had no influence in West Tek, the largest private military contractor, or the US Army which then took project… well I’d call you mad. The Enclave knew about FEV, they knew where to find it after the war, Vault 87 has no reason to exist in my opinion.

The Enclave is like a split government. One side is like the Right Wing Extremists and the other side are....normal.

Misguided is at least a slight understatement. :flamethrower:

As Benny would say, the only good thing about the Enclave is they ain't Legion.

Legion or Enclave, does not matter. Benny would be just as dead.

The Enclave are an affront and antithesis to everything the Founding Fathers intended for USA.

So? Would we now, in retrospect, not say the same about Slavery & treatment of the Native Americans? Point being that that is not an arguement, it's a contextless statement. I'm sure Augustus, Julius or whatever would look at Caesar and point out falicies but it wouldn't invalidate Legion Supporters arguements.

Many would say the same thing about the current United States Government actually (not that I agree with that though).

Is also hard to say what the founding fathers would have done when faced with the same sorts of devastation and horror that is faced by the Enclave in Fallout.

What I cannot abide though (and I'm not really directing this at you Madcat) is when people say "no the Enclave aren't the United States because the United States would never ever do such things".

Except that the Enclave was committing atrocities before the war.

The Enclave are atrocious not because they do atrocious acts... somtimes they're unavoidable. They only do atrocious acts. They don't exhaust less extreme options, they go straight for the big red button option.

They trod all over the bill of rights.

They imprisoned and even killed dissidents.

After the war, they committed acts of bigotry, considering any non "prime humans" as less than human. Then they experimented on unwilling human test subjects. Horrifying experiments.

They have not only defiled everything America once stood for, they have trampled on basic human dignity.

And to top it off, they are total and complete fools. They believe the solution to fixing the results of a biological weapon gone rampant (FEV) is to retool the bio-weapon into an anti-mutation weapon. "Let's take a proven highly unreliable bio-weapon and make it undo itself! Surely nothing could ever go wrong!"

They are a danger to all life, both by their intent and by their negligence.

Yeah there's truth in that, they do questionable things because they are mis-informated, paranoid and over-reacting to a perceived threat.



It's not an anti-mutantion weapon, it;s just a killer virus which requires an innoculation, hence it being used to kill everyone on the Oil Rig. It only targets humanoid life, animal and plant life will be un-harmed.

Why did you put "Prime Humans" in quotes? Just out of curiousity.

It is an anti-mutation weapon. President Eden says as much. Using it would result in a slow but inevitable http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow, since mutation is a major way that new traits are introduced to a species, and continue to exist if they prove beneficial. The sole redeeming quality of the fascistic Colonel Autumn seems to be that he realized the madness of releasing the mFEV.

"prime humans": Because if anything, they are less suited to the post-apoc environment they created than the survivor humans on a purely Darwinian level, yet they parade about as if they're somehow "pure" and the survivors are not.

Madcat, i like you style

Eden doesn't know [censored], I am refering to Fallout 2 and I always do so in every agruement; F3 Enclave for shame,

Also Colonel Autumn is a sack of [censored], who sacrificed his own men's lives by sending them into the purifier, staged a coup against the President and, juding from his audio-log, was going to randsom (with the self-destruct codes to the Enclave's CAPITAL) if the President didn't agree with him, has absolutely no concept of military stratergy and was apparently schizoid given that only hours after widowing most of his soldier's wifes and husbands by attacking the President he is completely in denial that the President would go behind his back and even accuses you of stealing the FEV before believing... then why the [censored] did he go insane in Raven Rock? BAH! [censored] Autumn.

EDIT: Well radiation does have adverse affects on people, see Vault City. It was my understanding that radiation does not make one evolve in a good way. By "parading about" do you mean decades of propaganda which has become the universal truth to all?

In the words of the Master,

"Mutants are best equipped to deal with the world today. Who else? the ghouls. Please. Normals? They brought Nuclear death to us all. This will be the age of mutants."

Yes, let's not forget that this came from the thing that didn't even bother to test if his creations could even breed before begining his campaign; plus, he is the one whom would have forced the human race into extinction, even wastelanders.