*sigh* I hate arriving to these debates late.


I always believed that Enclave scientists simply brought samples of the FEV virus with them when they fled to Raven Rock from Navarro. Its never explained (of course) in game, so we are left to our own speculations.

By virtue of Fallout 3, Navarro has already been given many more troops than we saw in Fallout 2. So I think we can reasonably assume that the base has (due to Fallout 3) been "upgraded," probably similar to Adams Air Force Base in terms of importance and capabilities.

With that in mind, I don't think its unreasonable to believe that Enclave scientists were perhaps testing samples of the virus there. Autumn Sr. after all, was a lead scientist at the base, so we can assume a strong(er) scientific force.

I don't think we can rule out the involvement of Vault 87's virus either however. I also believe that the issue with the current modified virus's lack of a airborne form may have been caused by the different strains.


Truthfully, I can't. Just as I can't come up with a suitable explanation as to why Autumn does a double-take during the purifier incident. It's one of those mysteries of Fallout 3.

I believe it may have been used as a way to calm the populace from any reports of Vertibird or advance scouting activity. We don't really know for how long Eden has been operating the radio, so it may not have been much before the LW left the vault.

The object being of course, something of a "Tokyo Rose" senario. Disarm the populace with your words and prevent undo hostilities. If a revolt were to occur against the Brotherhood spurred on by the radio then its just icing on the cake.

Its not a good explanation really, but its the one I generally go with. Otherwise there's little reason for its existence, even by Autumn's standards.

I of course, don't rule it out as Eden's "ego." He has no reason to pretend to be the President. He is the President. Why would he want to pretend to a bunch of people he wants to dispose of anyway? There's plenty of soldiers who are staunchly loyal to him within his actual faction.


Or they simply lack the equipment to do so.

You know what that means then? that would mean a possible fourth way into Vault 87. Its boggling.



Oh you rascal lol



I know, but I really hate those kids and Little Lamplight is one of the most annoying and disturbing of all of Fallout 3's many plot holes.

A less dark version, maybe the Enclave could have captured them to use as lab rats and in Broken Steel we find and rescue them.

Rescue?

Not for those brats.

I also thought that as well, but why would Navarro have any of it? Mariposa is also a possible reason for it.


But Navarro at some point fell to NCR, we just don't know when.



Ok that makes sense as to why some FEV would be at Navarro. But if he was so great, he would be on the A-Team on the Rig IMO.



I guess we can't but I don't think its that likely IMO. There are better theories IMO.

That also.

Good question. Like I said I'm just speculating that Fallout 3 essentially "retconned" the old Navarro, thus its difficult to say what exactly the base "was" at this point. So perhaps they were using Navarro as a limited research facility (along with its other duties of course) to test the virus on various easily attainable plants/fauna/wildlife which were in direct proximity to the base.

Or, perhaps Richardson ordered some to be kept on lockdown there specifically as a way to ensure its survival in the event of a worse case scenario of the rig. It could have been part of his larger COG plan which involved Eden.


Right, but what I meant was that the base has been retconned and turned into something more "upgraded" than what we see in Fallout 2. Similar in importance to Adams.

Richardson having some stored at Navarro makes sense. Could have been that they brought it to Navarro first to make sure it is safe. After all look what happened to the work crews at Mariposa. So doing some preliminary testing and research at Navarro would make sense. If something goes wrong they only lose Navarro. If something went wrong on the Rig they would lose everything (Well almost everthing, it would be far worse than losing Navarro).

Right. Personally, within the context of Fallout 3 and Eden. Richardson clearly had some sort of COG plan. The man planned for everything after all. He instructed his guards to shoot through him if he was ever held hostage. He was hell-bent on ensuring the survival of his plan and was himself ready to die for it.

Making sure the Enclave would have had some ability to continue the operation at some level would have been a logical move.

That is why I think the FEV came from Navarro or Mariposa after Fallout 2, and not Vault 87.

Ok hoss. I did not say I was a writer to be "smug". I said that, because as a writer, I tend to notice things as plot holes, or in some cases plot pits.

Generally, if I read something, or in this case play something that has a plot hole, I expect it to be filled, and if not, well...

And FYI, I could come up with many answers to your why didn't they "fill in blank" question, but there is no point, your holiness.

You guys miss the obvious.

The question/topic: could the Enclave "create" another Frank with FEV?

Fact: Enclave had FEV in FO3.

Where it came from is irrelevant. Brought with, scavenged from 87, both, doesn't really matter. They had it.

In the timeframe between FO2 and 3 is it thus possible some scientist has samples of FEV that does not get destroyed when RR explodes? Sure, it is possible.

It is even possible there is FEV in Chicago.

Wasn't FEV originally supposed to be a "super soldier" experiment? If so, it is thus even possible, that Enclave scientists tried to figure out what went wrong, to actually create super soldiers, and not messed up mutants.

I could actually live with that, instead of just another Frank, as it was already done. Super soldiers, not done.

They didn't like him to begin with, they tolerated him; but in their eyes, he was a freak.

The Enclave were always about pure-strain humanity ~and the death of all others.

Not only one, but they should also make army of frank horrigans.Well, even though he was pretty stupid idea in fo2 as well master in fallout1, but it would be epic to have 10 frank horrigans fighting and getting ass kicked from liberty prime. Also they could be new additional big creature like super mutant behemots.

10 Frank Horrigan's would pwn Liberty Prime's stupid ass.

The Master, a genius monster leading an army of Hulk-like supermutants and Frank Horrigan, a mutated Enclave soldier who was turned into a supersoldier, were dumb ideas? On what planet?

Liberty Prime was a pretty dumb idea. If the Enclave beat the Brotherhood to DC why didn't they go in the Pentagon, find Prime, fix it up, and conquer the wasteland?

Oh and two Frank Horrigans could beat Prime easily, ten would just be unfair for the communist hating robot.

Technically, no they were not. The deranged Richardson sit on a rig Enclave were all about pure-strain humanity. But, in 2077, such a thing did not exist. When this pure human thing came about we don't know.

In FO3 the pure-strain kill everyone was Eden. Autumn wanted to use the purifier for what it was intended, just under Enclave control.

Given that Horrigan was created in 2236 what's your point?


Autumn was a rouge agent, had Eden willed it he could have stripped him of his authority and had him imprisoned.

My point was a comment on the Enclave always being "anti-mutation", as false. Fairly clear, that I stated in FO2, they were anti, but when that belief, or how it came about, is a mystery of the 150 year plot pit.

And disagree on the rogue agent. Especially seeing how Eden says you are free to roam the facility, and Autumn basically says yeah...no. hmm who follows whose orders? Seems like the troops listen to Autumn. Eden tried anything like that, I would imagine Autumn would reveal Eden a ZAX and use his termination code.

Not really, Horrigan was a tool to an end. The Enclave traded laser-pistols with one of the Reno gangs for chemicals to complete the Project, Richardson is utterly in-different about them:

"We've run short of certain critical chemicals. We can get them from the drug labs of New Reno. If the mutant-mobsters use our guns to kill each other, just saves us the trouble."

It's not a "plot-pit", that implies conflicting canon; it's just a period of time we haven't seen.


Then Autumn would revel his complacency in the scheme and destroy the base that has given the Enclave food, water and shelter for three decades - in all a [censored] plan. The troops don't follow Autumn, they just follow orders un-questioningly, as Eden says: "Many people are content with a reassuring voice of authority, and never question the lack of public appearances." Shows how slavish the Enclave are, you really think that Eden would stand-by and let Autumn form some popular resistance against him? Autumn just says, "Ignore the President's previous directive, the vistor from Vault 101 is to be shot on sight." Doesn't imply anything even sidious. I can imagine that the Enclave soldiers thought that the Eden - whom they think is a person - has been rushed to saftey and Autumn put in-charge. When Enclave soliders in Fallout 3 die they say, "For Eden," and "I've failed." It's pretty clear whom is in charge.

Basically Bethesda wanted an action scene, nothing more. If you speak to Autumn in the Purifier he says this:

“I am sworn to protect the Presidency. The chain of command must be upheld. I wouldn’t expect you to understand.”

“Eden betrayed you. See this vial? He trusts me more than he trusts you.”

“That’s not true. That plan was abandoned months ago. He would never go behind my back!”

“But you know he has. He sent me to do a job that you wouldn’t.”

“You could have stolen the vial… it means nothing. It proves nothing.”

Not only adamant in his loyalty but even deluded that Eden would ever betray him, clearly there was poor communication between the writers at Bethesda - or maybe just poor writing and more fighting scenes.

Indeed. It was likely just a miscommunication on the part of the Enclave soldiery.


Yes. Autumn also defends Eden's legitimacy as President when it comes into question by the Lone Wanderer.

"When the Enclave fell on the West Coast, Eden was next in line for the Presidency."

Bethesda just wanted a fight scene in Raven Rock, and they failed to adequately explain why it should be there. Their reasoning of "the rebellion of Autumn and some of the soldiers" doesn't hold up with what the soldiers and Autumn himself say and do.


Then if Autumn was in rebellion, why didn't he just do that during the Raven Rock episode?


That's putting it mildly.

Actually, no its not. The topic is (with bad grammar) "the enclave should create another frank horrigan".
This is what is said by the OP.

The Enclave should probably recreate themselves before creating anything else.

No.
No.
No.
No.

I see no bad grammar from the thread starter

"the enclave should create another frank horrigan"

Red should be capitalized.

This is one of the rare moments where the Grammar Nazi inside me breaks free of its cage.

Yeah well at the purifier Autumn also says "I am the Enclave".

The slurping of a ZAX is poor writing, because Autumn does not trust Eden.

Via his recording when very James Bond like, you get the self-destruct code.

If I remember correctly, it is a very high speech check needed to get Autumn to believe Eden is betraying them, when really, it shouldn't be that difficult, as he already thinks that way.

Also yes, the topic was they should create, and it turned into a question if they could, because some questioned if they even had any FEV. No FEV=No Frank. But, they could have FEV.

Lastly, I don't see the point if trading lasers. Yes, I know they did, but that has nothing to do with their ideology. The plot pit is 150 years of the unknown activity, which if they never address it, is poor. May as well throw a dragon in FO4 if you ignore the wt heck these guys do for 150 years?

Which is a long time...150 years ago, 1862. Welcome to the Civil War. That would be the time of my great-great-great grandfathers. 6 generations.

It is capitalized to me, the topic name that is. Then, in his post, there is "enclave" and "frank horrigan" which should be capitalized but everything else is correctly capitalized I'm all for the Secret Grammar Nazi Police, but it's very nitpicky when it comes something like this, and calling it "bad grammar" haha. The Forum Führer should send you on people like Vajan and that NallePuh guy instead (sad to say, countrymen of mine)