Exactly. It's poorly written. Glad we agree on something, the whole Raven Rock thing exists for an action scene, end-off.

Generations don't mean anything to them, the passage of time either; look at Vault 101 and the like - yeah they went out into the wasteland but one bad experience and they sealled themselves away and pretended nothing happened (and they're supposed to be the "normal ones". I hyposited that the same happened to the Enclave, perhaps around 2170 when all of the CA coast was swamped with the Master's roving armies just after his defeat. Even a 100 years time-scale, imagine four/five generations in a Vault, society and socially these people would not be the same.

They need chemicals to complete the Projhect, so they get them from the mainland in exchange for some crappy civilian issue laser pistols; it's not like it's going to matter after the Project is it?

Which just proves that Bethesda couldn't make up their mind on how to portary Autumn. One minute he's a loyal soldier. The next, he's a rebel.

Needless to say we can't really decipher what they were actually intending. So we might as well just leave it as it is.


They could if they managed to save samples from the Modified FEV virus. However, it probably isn't enough to create a "horrigan" or probably any sort of supermutant for that matter. Since the Vault 87 mutants mention running out of the "green stuff" we can assume that it takes a minimum amount for the transformation to be successful.

Damn, foiled by my address bar. ...

Well, questions is, if they had FEV, could they produce more? Seems that if you break down the chemical make-up, you should be able to. And maybe even "fix it" to create super soldiers.

Vault 101..even generally average pansy vault dwellers(can't all be the VD or LW), broke the rules and went out.

Sorry, but I can't believe govt officials, who want to reclaim America, and military types, who want action, will sit on their butt and die. I wouldn't.

And ya, I do agree and have always thought isolation drove some crazy, but I also think they still did something. They can conduct covert military ops while civilians and politico types stay.

I also believe that they were planning on filling the plot pit, but well, for now it remains open.

They got the FEV from Navarro or Mariposa or a very very unlikely possibility, from Vault 87.

The Enclave could make more FEV? Well if they have some FEV they could theoretically produce more.. But why? They hate mutants, why would they want to make more? Their numbers are very low by now so the last thing they would want to do is screw around with FEV in an attempt to make a mutant freak like Frank.

I doubt the Enclave would even have the facilities and equipment to produce anymore FEV. If they had such stuff the question of why comes up again. They are on their last legs, but I doubt they would decide to produce more mutant freaks.

They would be focued on trying to regroup if anything, possibly in Chicago.

Or they could be researching the FEV to create super soldiers, like the pre-war military.

You can capture wastelanders or trade with slavers for test subjects. Or even go back to basics and test on animals again.

Or....they could hire outside scientists. One theory I always had was that the mystery employer for Reileys Rangers was Enclave. Hire someone to map out the ruins of DC. Zero risk to your own people for valuable intel. Groups change, beliefs change, survive and adapt. Or die.

So hiring mercs, for cannon fodder, or say hiring out a job to scientists, well, could be a good idea.

What would they pay them with? Besides, the Rangers are about scouting locations, I doubt that Raven Rock - the Continuity of Government facility for the Pentagon - lacks any geographical data; locations of wasteland settlements maybe but Reily pays you per location.

I can see them doing those things. Attempting to start up the super soldier project as a means to fend off the end.

My idea/dream is to have remnants allying themselves with the MWBoS under General Barnaky. As their ally they would be independant, but be the MWBoS I.T guys. All the while doing their own secret things trying to over throw the leadership oneday. Note: I would prefer never to see them again, but if Bethesda decides to have them back in some form, this is how I think they should do it.

The Enclave could promise them alot: Better weapons and armour. They could also make a deal with Barnaky to try and make his people "pure blood" humans, using his people as their guinea pigs.

This video just for you Styles. Lol...reminds me of..well..the American way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And as far as what the Enclave would pay, well, their covert suit op probably takes items to trade for caps. Gold, food, weapons, then paid Reilly or other mercs, in caps.

Umm, like the Legion guy who approaches you outside the Tops after you get the chip. That is what I visioned this Enclave operative as. Incognito and working with the locals.

And sure, maps and data awesome...if the infrastructure wasn't destroyed by Nuclear war, so knowing what locations are like now, what is blocked off and not, is quality intel.

This is where I have to find fault, the Enclave - as you've said with them hiring mercs - know nothing about the Capital Wasteland since the war, nothing about anything really aside from their own little world; they'd be as subtle as Mr Burke in Megaton and they have very itchy trigger fingers. I mean do you even think that they understand the concept of commerce? They make reference to money in Fallout 2 but why would they need it then? Especially in Raven Rock, the only thing I can see them paying for is food - so really their just earning rations - in all other aspects it's the rule of martial law.

I just don't see how this covert operation would work, or indeed it's ultimate goal. Hiring mercs as pure canon fodder in battle I could see, we don't see it happen but I could see that. But hiring mercs for proper operations? And scientists? They took Anna Holt back to Raven Rock but that's just because they've captured a device that they don't know the specifics of and need someone to explain it too them; she and the rest of the wasteland scientists are self-educted right? There's no way that they could know more than an Enclave scientist and it's not like the Enclave have any moral qualms to need to sub-contract work.

They don't need to pay mercs to tell them where Dukov's Place or the Super-Duper Mart is though do they? Beside's haven't the Eyebots been scouting out locations, I thought that was their function? The Enclave as a whole weren't interested in attacking anywhere, they have checkpoints and we can assume that the Enclave getting dropped off by Vertibird's are scouts or on a mission; they're really just trying to hold the fort until Autumn get's the Purifier and everything falls into place - at they point Autumn believing that Eden has scrapped the Project idea.

So the only education Enclave teaches is science, no economics? I doubt it, as capitalism is to America as Apple is to pie.

The Rangers scout deadly areas a eyebot would be destroyed trying to reach, so the Mall info and surrounding DC area would be valuable intel, and you would want all the intel you could get, before dropping troops into a hot zone. That would be the quality intel, stuff like super duper mart etc just the baggage that comes with the good.

There could be facilities, old data, new invention, that would also be gold to the Enclave. Regardless of their feelings towards freaks, a Poseidon corp ghoul scientist, or any pre-war tech corp for that matter would be an incredible find. Pinkerton would even be valuable, because he is not only a scientist, but an android.

Now, you can take people as prisoner, but you always get better results if people work willingly or for pay, and you run a lesser threat of sabotage.

If your numbers are low, or your facilities lacking, you need all the resources you could muster, and the Enclave has the ability to trade for those resources, which include manpower.

Plus if you want to be a knob you can be nice until they do their job, then eliminate them.

What place is their for capitalism in their society? Aside from historical knowledge perhaps from what they were taught in school what experience will Enclave citizens have about even the most basic of transactions, they all wear uniforms, the Enclave Citizens in Fallout 2 say, "I wonder what saftey film is on tonight?" State run entertainment even. There's no shops on the Oil Rig and certainly not in Raven Rock.


We don't see the Enclave in D.C. A few at Capitol Hill, a Vertibird bombing and a squad deployed in Steward Square and one... somewhere else full of Super-Mutants - I'm thinking Dupont Circle but not sure. And I guess some at Dukov's Place too - those near the National Guard Armoury aren't really in the city.


These are all things that they would deal with themselves, the Enclave is hardly trusting of the mainlander - to put it pretty [censored] lightly - you think that they will trust outsider mercs to just find one of these technology caches and not expect them to cream a little off the side. Besides that's another point, the Enclave are not logical people; they'd need to be pretty dry for ideas to think about hiring outsider mercs. Which is the point, ultimately in Raven Rock, Eden is in-charge; some Enclave officers isn't going to be able to just walk outside and act off his own iniative. Something like trading resources and openly deploying operatives into the wasteland - especially in a smaller society like the Enclave - would require the authorisation of the Commander-in-Chief, as it stands we can see in-game that the Enclave don't question having never seen Eden because "Many people are content with a reassuring voice of authority, and never question the lack of public appearances." If Eden - who has the benefit of being immortal - says that we're going to deploy the Project one day who's going to question him? They'll just accept it and wait patiently, they don't even need to see this guy to have their final words be "For Eden." Have you read Nineteen-Eighty-Four? The Enclave is very George Orwell in some ways.

As for Androids... ugh don't even get me started on that; I could rant on at how [censored] stupid those things are forever.

Well you kinda contradict yourself. Because..

They obviously know what trading is, as you said yourself, they trade for drugs... because they need the drugs. That is the whole concept of trading. Trading for what you need.

Then you say Enclave scientists are the best, yet they need a wastelander scientist to explain it. And she isn't in shackles or a slave collar, but happy to be there.

There is no need to trade on the rig. But once they hit the mainland are they going to be communist or socialist in economics? Or capitalist like America was pre-war. One would imagine with the anti-communist sentiment of the retro fo world, they would setup a capitalist economy.

My point isn't just in FO3 did they hire Reilly, but in the future, what will they do to survive? Eden is gone. So, what is the will and smarts of the Enclave leadership?

Now more than ever before this particular group of Enclave would have to adapt, and they have the means to do so.

Why would someone resort to cannibalism? Sometimes when your back is against the wall, you will be surprised what you do to survive.

Anyway, sure in certain instances they have no need to trade. But things change. Lyons BoS adapted. Will the Enclave? If they don't, then they are dead.

I will say I like the idea of playing with the FEV to create super soldiers, and as always, if writing was good, I like the idea of a fresh look at the Enclave.

I have to admit. I enjoying tinkering with the idea as well.

I don't suppose you've played or used Marts Mutant Mod? With the mod, is the introduction of Enclave mind-controlled super-mutant soldiers known as "Enclave Enforcers." At first I was hesitant to accept them but I began to like the idea more and more.

Personally, I could see the Enclave at this point (assuming there is a Mojave-BOS sized group or so of them still out there to actually be worth it) placing more research into Bio weapons like the Deathclaws and perhaps other creatures, such as super-mutants. Along with a greater emphasis on robotic research (not androids, but sentry bots, robo-brains etc.). All in order to supplement their loss of military manpower.

Nope I'm a console player. Computer busted, so I need to build a new one.

This is how the trading can be very valuable to surving FO3 Enclave. They have a lot of weapons and armor they could trade. Assuming they have info from RR of the location of other CoG bases, which could number in the 100's, they could setup base and trade with mercs, whatever for added guards, while they experiment. Go Chicago and do the same. If they met inventive wastelanders they could steal, kill, or trade for their work or ideas.

Really there is no end to what survivors could do.

It's straight up bartering, not sending out agents intot the wasteland to secretly trade equipment for caps to then trade with a bunch of mercs.


Can you work a keyboard? How about one in Chinese? They needed someone from the Purifier to explain how it worked as it would obviously save time from them having to figre out what all the buttons did themselves. She was happy to be there... so? The Salvatore's were happy for the laser pistols but they weren't going to be alive. Your asking me to think that self-taught wastelanders can have a better education than people in the Enclave.


Because the Enclave really changed that much from Rig to Raven Rock didn't they? They wouldn't set-up a Capitalist economy, it's detrimental to their efforts to survive.


Likely not very good, they've had Eden in charge for 30 years. After having so many of their families, friends and countrymen killed along with their chance at victory I can't imagine that they'll be pretty open to change or the wasteland.


The Enclave aren't normal people, you know sometimes people do just die rather than adapt. Lyon's BoS didn't adapt, just deserted from the regular BoS. Enclave are clearly still slavish to whomever is in authority.

Well, I don't think it is very hard to trade items to merchants for currency.

Had the Enclave mission succeeded, what economic system would they have used?

Getting defeated should open people up to change, because it is a sign their current strategy isn't working. And imo the Enclave was different from 2 to 3. Autumn represented that change, not my fault they dropped the ball.

Lyons BoS did more than split, they recruited wastelanders, and started protecting wastelanders, taking a more active role in their environment.

I don't see fanatical, crazy, or suicidal behavior from Enclave. Richardson, yes, I consider bat crap crazy.

We have different opinions on what the Enclave is and was, so on these topics we prolly will not agree. I view them, regardless of their ideology as human beings who in the end will do whatever it takes to survive. That like most intelligent folk, they will learn from their mistakes. But, imo there is a difference between loyalty and duty, and fanaticism that borders on suicide.

And, I don't think all wastelanders are self taught. Obviously there is some kind of schooling or apprentiships, depending on the region. They(writers) haven't done the best job explaining how some of these people received their education. Obviously NCR, BoS, Vaults, FotA, can produce some quality scientists, and who knows what else is out there.

What are your thoughts of Enclave toying with FEV to make super soldiers?

But mostly what I have listed are strategies Enclave could use to fight off extinction. So, always subject to revision and new ideas, some better than others, and the Reilly Ranger thing was just a theory.

Nahh, they have better things to do like, oh I don't know, maybe re-establishing themselves in a secure location until they have revive their lost power....

Probably the same they had until a time came for proper private enterprises to emerge. Even in Fallout 2 it would probably have taken decades.


And betrayed the fundamentals of their organisation, they aren't even Brotherhood anymore as the High Elders don't recognise Lyon's authority.


The fact that they take their leaders words on faith alone and utter Eden's name as their last words, pretty fanatical too me.



Where-as I view them as people whom will never learn from their mistakes, especially in Fallout 3 where they've been subjected to out-right indoctrination from President Eden; IMO anyone who still takes up the Enclave's cause during and after Broken Steel will be even more devoted and loyal than those who came before. Again, imagine the mind-set of the Enclave during this period. Raven Rock is gone, Eden is dead, the plan for victory has been destroyed, their friends and family are mostly dead. Moral will be so low I can't really think of a suitable adjective, dispair maybe? How does one describe the destruction of basically everything in ones life over the course of a week. I can imagine people deserting the Enclave - out of hopelessness and not some "moral" epiphany - and I can imagine those staying. I can't see where new ideas come from in that, think of all the racist fools in real life whom cling to old grudges and events as justifications; now imagine the Enclave doing that over the destruction of their entire way of life only last week/month/year. The Enclave were never properly rational and logical people to begin with...


Schooled by who though? People whom have taught themselves, in the more civilised areas it's clear that some standardised education system has been put into place, within the BoS, Vaults and FotA we can be most certain. But in the Capital Wasteland? Where things are barely even civilised, the only school we see in that game is in the Republic of Dave... yeah.


Depends. Enclave forcibly mutating their own people? I'd say no, the Enclave is about the survival of pre-war humanity:

"Maybe we're changing into a better version of the human race. Did you ever think of that?"
"Very possible, indeed. In which case, our mission is even more vital to the survival of the human race."

They're not about adaptation - assuming that Eden has copied Richardson's mantra, which he appears to have done to a tee; an early concept of Fallout 3 was that Richardson himself would have downloaded his brain into a computer... - to the wasteland and I can't imagine them mutating themselves; but a mainlander slave army? Sure but that entails it's own obvious risks. I'm not willing to believe that Richardson or even Eden - whom I'm not exactly fond off - would be willing to forcibly convert their own people into "super-soliders" especially when they plan on letting a killer virus do all the hard work for them anyway.

Similar to the Deathclaw mind control project really. The benefit of having Deathclaws to do the hard-fighting close combat work is obvious. However the procuring and use of the creatures themselves can be quite risky. Notwithstanding their capture:

"The new creatures need transport to Bio-Lab. A request has been sent to the scientists regarding the immediate delivery and attachment of two Domestication Units for the subjects. My men have taken enough risks bringing these creatures in. There is no excuse for the tardiness regarding the Domestication Units."-Terminal entry from Raven Rock


It would need to be a very controlled program, with careful safeguards in place.

But they don't just blindly follow Eden. Autumn maintains the mirage. And possibly others who we never see, as Eden says a few people know.

Swearing your loyalty to someone is different than being a fanatic who will give up the basic instinct of preserving your own life.

Again, I always thought there were other officers we do not see, and politicians, like Congress. Pretty sure on Eden's radio message he blabs about Congress, but he also lies, too, so it is hard to tell what is a flat out lie, ir something that may be slightly true.

This is the key problem. The Enclave is a mystery. Compared to say BoS, who we know decent amount of their history from 2077 on, we know very little of Enclave history. There is a 150 year gap, then another 30 some year gap. That is huge. Not to mention, can't even trust what some of the npcs even say as the truth.

See, I could be wrong, but so can you, and everyone else, because there are too many unknown variables.

For example: we don't see living quarters. Don't see old people or children. Don't see other officers or politicians. Don't see production facilities. From that list you can create countless possibilities, which no doubt is why it can be frustrating when talking about them.

But, I don't think trying to fix the FEV to make super soldiers is actually creating a mutant. Could they do it? Maybe, cuz it almost works. But I also like the idea of messing with deathclaws and such. Deathclaws guarding a base does make top notch security. Maybe they can FEV up some deathclaws...super deathclaw.

As long as the writing is good and thought out, any faction can either thrive or be killed off.

Well if we are going by Fallout 3 they kind of do, the entire "defence" of the Purifier against Prime is Enclave soldiers hiding behind sandbags against a 50-foot tall robot. The Enclave are more just fanatical to the cause than just Eden, in-fact that's another thing they say upon death, "I've failed..."


I wouldn't take anything Eden says on the radio as factual, at-all; it's all just propaganda designed to accomplish... something... presumably. I remember Todd Howard lolling at killing raiders whilst listening to Yankee Doodle Dandee, what was probably why Enclave Radio exists. Besides Congress of what? I imagined more a devolved U.S. Cabinet or Joint Chiefs running the whole Operation. Richardson himself says that the Government has had to "adapt" to survive, given the Enclave's size it's almost certain that most of the fat will have been trimmed away.

I again put that down to Bethesda being total hacks. "Ppphhhfff, who needs to see things like "children" or "barracks" when we can have wicked cool Yao Guai is stasis." We see a total of 8 beds in Raven Rock, but we also see a corridor on Level 1 get sealed by an explosion, as Eden says only Autumn is allowed in the ZAX room so their are clearly other areas.

Basically it boils down to the whole Raven Rock thing being a big fight scene, officers die too quick - even though in the originals officers wore power armour too, thanks for that [censored]-up Bethesda - Children can't be killed and things like civilians make the Enclave seem less evil and we can't have that, only the Brotherhood are good guys and the Enclave just split into new soldiers like amoeboids when you've slaughtered enough of them!

Well they made the sentient Deathclaws in Fallout 2 but they were smarter than intended - I personally thought they were a bit dumb.

Well they had Congress in FO2 and pretty sure Richardson was a congressman before being elected prez.

You said the A word...adapt. But anyway, the rig obviously had elections, politicians. Why would they all of a sudden, give up that practice?

Going from practicing democracy to a dictatorship...that a tough one to swallow. Not to mention if they maintain the pre-war values and 50s thing, they would be aggressively against such an idea. No love for communism, socialism, dictatorships.

Again this is stuff that total speculation. Is it possible there is or isn't a Congress? Yes.

In regards to deathclaws, don't have to be sentient. But maybe. I wouldn't mind a deathclaw companion.

The Deathclaw species seen in Fallout Tactics make good squad mates and I wouldn't mind having them back again

How can you have any form of Congress or Civilian Government where nobody has seen the President? A small Cabinet of people informed... hell in my on-going fan-fic that's exactly what I have, but a whole Congress? A whole Senate (you'll have to excuse me if those are both the same thing, I've never been sure; I think it's like the House of Commons and then the House Lords here in the UK).

Eden managed to hold power indefinately based entirely on the power of his voice and the Enclave's pre-conditioned slavish nature, I can't imagine that politics was anything that he ever saught to expand lest he be outed.


But it happened, Eden was never elected and maintain three-decades of authority as the Acting President of the United States; it's not really a dictatorship, merely Eden as an individual abusing the emergency Presidential line-of-succession, nobodies ever called him out on it and he's the one with the provisions to call a return to proper elections. My own personal theory was that Eden was buying his time, waiting all those years so that the old Enclave from the Rig die out and retire leaving the Enclave entirely in the control of the people whom cry, "For Eden" when they die; basically setting himself up as a dictator, but I've never had a high opinion of Eden's character.