So these people are perfectly happy just to gather all of this stuff and not use it for anything? Everyday for centuries these people get up, go out and find or take some Old World military gear and then go home to thier bed & locker? Christ, the people on the Enclave Oil Rig had more diversity in their lives. The Brotherhood must be the finest entity that has ever existed, without any mechanisms of social engineering and effecting the common consensus they have maintained a fanatical population that are willing to live lives without any definable long-term goal aside from "find stuff" and, aside from the odd exception, be completely in agreence and devotion to the Codex and then even are willing to die and go into hiding for it. Shame we can't go back and tell the Enclave that the Vault Experiments were pointless because an organisation has already built the most perfectly stable and self-perpetuatin society.



Except that almost everyone appears to be in agreence that dying out is completely fine, Elijah pretty much left the Brotherhood because he wanted to use the technology and Veronica is something of a pariah that can actually be convinced to leave the Brotherhood and join the Followers (except of course that some over zealous Brotherhood Paladins get their first and kill everyone). They only have a real interest in military technology, in one of the endings to NV, where they come to a truce with the NCR, as part of the agreement the NCR hands over all of their salvaged power armour; why? So they can put it in some vault? Or the one where they recaputed Helios, for what purpose? They don't need the power and even if they discovered and activated Archmedis what then?

I don't understand how in society, that's relatively free of social engineering, can exist and be loyal and willing to die for the goal of collecting resources for it's own sake.

Well, honestly, the Brotherhood has a more healthy cultural obsession than most. After all, of the power armor and weaponry they produce allow them to expand their Paladin ranks. Likewise, Helios and so on will give them an advantage in defending themselves. Really, the Brotherhood doesn't NEED a purpose anymore than any other tribe. Tribes just need to breed, keep their cultural obsessions, and expand.

Because that's really the thing that shoots the Brotherhood of Steel in the foot.

They're a tribe, not a society.

People JOIN societies, people don't really join tribes nearly so often.

Honestly, it started as a tribe not a society too - Maxxon wanted his soldiers to survive. The whole "protect people from dangerous technology" thing came later.

The Brotherhood does use the tech it finds. Scribes anolyze and improve upon tech, Knights manufacture it and Paladins use it. In F1 Vree will tell you about a laser pistol she designed. Preserving doesn't mean locking it in a vault it means studying and understanding it so that the knowledge won't be lost. I don't see why you think this would make their lives so intolerably dull. It's not like they spend every waking minute obsessing over technology. They marry, have families, friends and pretty normal lives presumably on the whole they just do so in an isolationist organization dedicated to the preservation of technology rather than a nation.

Also people do leave the Brotherhood. They can choose to leave. Hardly surprising that those who choose to stay would be pretty dedicated to the Brotherhood's ideals and survival.



No they just don't see a way to change it without compromising everything the Brotherhood stands for. Elijah didn't leave because he wanted to use technology everyone in the Brotherhood is absolutely fine with using the technology they acquire he left because, like Veronica, he wanted to fundamentally change the nature of the Brotherhood. Again it is not surprising that there is resistance to a change that deeply alters the nature of the entire organization no matter how perilous maintaining the status quo may seem.

Presumably they wanted the NCR to hand over their power armor so they would pose less of a threat to the Brotherhood in the future or to use it for themselves. As for recapturing Helios it's fairly obvious what a nice guarantee of security having a superweapon on your side would be.

They don't really collect resources for their own sake they preserve technology and knowledge for the sake of the future. Vree sums this up well in Fallout 1: "The only salvation this tortured planet and its people have. Without us, humanity is sure to perish." Naturally not every member of the Brotherhood shares that belief and by New Vegas they seem to be increasingly paranoid to the point where guys like McNamara think the future the Brotherhood is waiting for involves everyone outside the Brotherhood killing each other off but it's not like they just pick up tech for no reason. They believe in their mission same as every other faction in Fallout.

I think you're both wrong regarding Elijah. Elijah left the Brotherhood because the NCR had thoroughly kicked his ass and he wanted the technology at Sierra Madre to fundamentally turn the tide. It's just, by the time he finally got everything, he'd been disgraced and replaced as Elder. That, combined with his imprisonment probably broke his mind. Elijah didn't LEAVE the Brotherhood of Steel, he abandoned the field - probably in part because of the realization of his utter failure.

As for abandoning what they are, that's a severely questionable stance. The Codex being an absolutely unchanging document just means that they're religious fundamentalists and fundamentalists aren't any better at religion than anyone else. Also, the whole, "preserving the knowledge for the future" is bubkiss though. It IS the future. It's 200 years after the Apocalypse.

Who are they preserving the knowledge for? Well, obviously it's only the Brotherhood.

Yeah I know, that's the point. They improve their own tech to find more tech easier and then improve it again; don't you think that that's the problem? I don't think that their lives are that normal, they are a roving army with all three castes all serving the military in some capacity; they don't have any private property, just a bed and a locker for some stuff, it's like a constant life in the army.



And Veronica says that most choose not to leave, regardless of their opinions, because the Brotherhood is where their family is and is all that they have known.



That's my point, why does this complete abject hatred of change exist when the people in the Brotherhood are pretty normal people. Maybe it's jsut because the idea is so abhorent to me personally, but I just cannot understand why it is that their organisation, which has been around longer than anyone but the Enclave that we know of, has not yet really changed fundamentally.



They didn't know that it was there, only Elijah did.



Exactly, they have changed; it seems to me that their original mission has been corrupted as time as gone on. Vree makes them sound like high-tech Followers (even though they are still kind of dikeish in Fallout, that Paladin telling you to go to the Glow, knowing full well that you won't return - or so he thinks) but by Fallout: New Vegas or even Fallout 2 their influence and ability has servely decreased as other factions have access (even selling) power armour and even common gangs in San Fran tote Plasma Weapons and Grendades. They have already changed, but it's almost like they don't realise it.

Besides, depending on what the Courier does, there IS no superweapon at Helios One.

Possible. I haven't played Dead Money yet so I'm mainly going off the wiki where it claims he believed the Brotherhood would be unable to survive without distributing tech to gain favor and recruits with the people of the wasteland. The main point is that he didn't leave because no one would let him use the tech they found though.



It's not just a blind refusal to abandon the Codex. If you are a loyal and dedicated member of an isolationist faction devoted to the preservation of technology and someone tells you your only chance for survival is to stop all that nonsense and start providing the functions of a state while handing out the tech you've painstakingly preserved to any outsider who is willing to tote a gun for you its not unreasonable that you just might not agree with that change Codex or no Codex.



It is the future but in fairness there's no real indication that people are any more capable of responsibly using the tech the Brotherhood has preserved than they were at the time of F1. I mean the NCR is the most likely beneficiary and they're a fairly ramshackle state on the verge of a major famine due to overexpansion and depletion of natural resources run by corrupt politicians who are quite likely to abuse any major windfall of technology.

However no doubt many in the Brotherhood, particularly by the time of New Vegas (McNamara is a good example) agree with the idea that tech is only for the Brotherhood. But again even if that is the case the point is the Brotherhood does have a purpose to collecting technology beyond collecting it for it's own sake or because the Codex says so or what have you. They do believe in a future and are working towards it.

The Original Brotherhood in Fallout 1 did trade without siders. They let caravans come up to their base. They did not send out people like Veronica to get supplies. In the early years they protected the wasteland people from themselves. Think about what would happen if some warlord went out and found a cash of Power Armour. Since they are the only Faction in the west that seem to have a large amount of PA (only one that has it other then the Shi), they must have done a good job. They are military, and pre-war. Stands to reason they knew locations of Power Armour. Depending on how you play Fallout they would be willing to help you. After they send you on a mission that is likely to kill you.

Only problem is people managed to advance despite them. Not that their goal was to stop others from advancing. Their goal was to keep people from becoming like Caesars Legion, only with pre-war goodies. Who knows how many factions the brotherhood destroyed that were wannabe warlords that stumbled on a cash of PA and Gattling Lasers. Maybe if it was not for the Brotherhood, the towns and settlements in Fallout might not have formed.

Lore says they form a state in NCR. Fallout 2 shows that Brotherhood have a bunker in Shady Sands. Even back then the Brotherhood played the role of knights. Just not White Knights. I doubt they protected anyone out of the goodness of their heart. They sent away those that wanted changes before the events of Fallout 2 and they did it in a way that to me is questionable. As in its like they wanted them to run into a storm.

Seems to me over the years they went from a group that did trade and deal without siders to a group that just shuts out the outside world. Maybe its because they no longer have a King aka a Maxson. They sent the last one away with Lyons. New Vegas shows us that the wrong leadership can hurt the Brotherhood. They need a leader that can override their codex. Really the only one that can do that is a Maxson.

And? I've known military families where both parents served for many years on bases with some truly miserable on-base housing I might add. I mean I think it's safe to say that Lost Hills does have some private quarters for married couples for obvious reasons if they want to keep birth rates up.



I've always wondered about Veronica's objectivity when it comes to that comment though. That's certainly why she chose to stay but given that no one else in the Mojave Chapter seems to support her opinions in the slightest and she clearly can't know for certain isn't it possible she's just projecting a bit? Also if it's all they have known isn't that a good indication that while there may be superior opportunities in the outside world, those who don't know about them (which would be many) would be pretty used to the Brotherhood's way of life and likely to support it in the face of uncertain change?



I don't think they hate change. The Brotherhood has changed from F1 to New Vegas. It's less hating change than being unwilling to readily accept such a drastic change as people seem to expect them to do by wilingly opening their ranks to outsiders, sharing technology and providing the functions of a state. Again it is not unreasonable for the Brotherhood to be unwilling to compromise the principles that they have, for whatever reason, spent their entire lives serving.



They may not have known the specifics but they knew some sort of powerful weapon was there.



Right but they changed in a manner that isn't out of line with their core principles. It's not unlikely that an elitist and isolationist faction dedicated to the preservation of technology would become even more elitist and paranoid about tech. Ditching all the principles that define the Brotherhood is another kind of change entirely.

The issue becomes a relevant one if and when the Brotherhood of Steel's membership is completely depleted. In real life, "closing the door to immigration" tends to shoot people in the foot. Just look at Japan and China for example. In this case, it's in miniature but makes perfect sense. Assuming the Brotherhood is a nation in itself (at Broken Hills), it makes sense that their isolationism is hurting them - especially during wartime.

Likewise, hording their knowledge really doesn't do a lick of good because the Brotherhood isn't really necessarilly even the most advanced power in the Wasteland. NCR is a Vault-based government and Vault-City beside it are all at Pre-War levels of tech. The perception of the Brotherhood as the bastions of civilization in a nest of "savages" comes off as ridiculous when there's ultra-tech groups all around them.



It's not like the Brotherhood's self-appointed mission was any more correct 100 years ago than it is now, either. Again, the Vaults are filled with people fully capable and knowledgeable about technology as well as science and history. In the case of NCR, they also took steps to DEAL with the famine that's coming in a decade or two. Most governments TODAY lack that sort of foresight.



This is where it gets weird, McNamara is actually the LIBERAL in the Mojave Bunker. The fact he makes you, an outsider, a paladin strikes me as much more being willing to bend the Codex and interpret it correctly than Hardin who seems like he made you a paladin solely because you're his political crony. I'm inclined to think McNamara would also be fairly willing to share non-dangerous tech if the Codex allows it.

He's just constrained by its precepts.

From what Veronica says, the Brotherhood isn't hording the tech for the future, they're hording weapons tech to keep it out of the hands of Wastelanders. It's a fairly understandable position actually. They're not about rebuilding humanity but keeping energy weapons and nuclear devices out of the hands of people who would destroy the world again.

It's just, sadly, Victor Presper wasn't stopped.

Maybe, I can't find any damn Rad-X to get through the Glow (when the game doesn't lock up my computer) so I don't know much about Lost Hills itself, I assumed that as it served as the Brotherhood's capital and spae my be tight. Isn't it likely that Lost Hills is gone now? I mean, even people in the Hub could point you in it's direction and the NCR and BoS had a relationship before the war.



I would be inclined to agree somewhat on her objectivity; I would actually imagine that Elijah might have influenced that decision, however correct or not it may be it certainly isn't felt by anyone else, even if McNamara is patient with her. I would however say that the Brotherhood aren't ignorant of the outside world, sure all they have known is a militaryesque upbringing, but they known what life in the NCR is like; I just thought that more than Veronica would be curious about the outside world as their access to it isn't (or maybe wasn't now) that limited.



But have they changed at all, willingly anyway? I don't think that they should knock aside all of their own traditions, I just think that they should've embraced some kind of change long ago. They exist, now, in the middle of the NCR, an organisation which has united many and brought saftey, order and organisation to a world which previously consisted of small barter economies. There are the Followers who are actually all about spreading knowledge, often selflessly too, and have specialist universities to teach people; even before 2242 the Brotherhood had become somewhat obselete as the vanguard of technology.



Same as above, they only seem to have streamlined their goal over time into something more fundamentalist (those BoS Paladins who track down the Followers, hell those guys broke the chain of command and acted on their own volition they were that outraged), even in the wake of the rapid civilised world around them.

It's debatable actually.

Pro-Gone

* The Brotherhood lost the war with NCR. Kimball refers to the Brotherhood War in the past tense.
* The sorry state of the Mojave Chapter.
* The fact they're TERRIFIED of NCR.

Pro-Alive

* Elijah and Veronica came from SOMEWHERE. So obviously there's other chapters of the BOS in California.

Honestly, I'm inclined to think the Brotherhood was probably defeated and forced into hiding. The Mojave Brotherhood is just the first to make a truce with NCR, i.e. surrender.



This is probably due to the perception that Elder McNamara is weak more than anything else. Everyone is apparently getting a little stir crazy in Hidden Valley and reports are coming in that the situation has gotten much worse on the surface. They're anxious, paranoid, and at their wits end with Hardin feeding the fire to become Elder of Steel early.

Just because Kimball talks about it in past tense does not mean Brotherhood lost.

Mojave chapters sorry state and being "Terrified of NCR" is not the case. One leader overly cautious of NCR does not mean the Brotherhood as a whole in the west wet themselves at the sight of NCR. Alot of the BoS in New Vegas wanted to get out of that hole.

The fact that NCR and Mojave Chapter can make a peace deal means there is hope the rest back west did as well. Maybe a chapter by chapter bases. There could be Chapters outside of NCR's territory. Taking out the Brotherhood would be alot harder then going to war against the Legion IMO. NCR may have numbers and some pretty great weapons but Brotherhood have very advanced pre-war tech. Enough to give the Bear (NCR) a very bloody nose. We would have heared about that in New Vegas. NCR did not have any troops walking around in T-51b power armour with gauss weapons. If they had won victory after victory against the Brotherhood I would think they would have such tech looted from the BoS.

Brotherhoods problem IMO is they have no leader, no "King," the Maxsons are the ones that created the Codex and they are the only ones that can change it. Seems few are willing to go against it. Stuck in a loop "well what does the codex say?" The Last Maxson was sent to DC. Maybe those in the Brotherhood that want change but were smart enought to keep their mouths shut, arranged it to send the last Maxson east with a man that can shape him. Maybe it was some plan all along. Go as far as you can from the original BoS. Show the value of letting in new blood to him. When he is old enough to become head Elder. Come back to Lost Hills. Sure its a gamble but it might have been the last chance they had.

MWBoS could have shown them the brightside decades ago but something unknown happened to them :shifty:

No, but there's no indication that the Brotherhood is a major threat anymore. Given there's obviously no formal surrender agreement for the entire Brotherhood, it's quite likely that the war is still "ongoing" but the NCR considered it to be a mopping up action now. They're obviously considered enough of a threat that Colonel Moore wants them destroyed, it's not a case where the Brotherhood was completely SMASHED but we're past the point it's an actual war.



NCR is not going to be involved in a war in the Mojave if it's engaged in active military operations against the BOS. In McNamara's case, his caution is all well justified as NCR has many times its original presence in the region and both the other major powers (House and Caesar's Legion) are interested in destroying the Brotherhood.



I don't know, if the Elders at Lost Hill signed a surrender/truce agreement then the Mojave Chapter probably wouldn't have had to fear them as well. McNamara showed himself as a progressive leader in the fact that he chose to sign a separate peace agreement with the NCR. In this respect, he might be viewed as a traitor or a coward but it guarantees the survival of the BOS even if the rest is destroyed.

(Obviously, some Elders survive West of the Colorado since Father Elijah and Veronica came from the West)



NCR has access to Pre-War Tech as well, as the Van Graffs show the Brotherhood's monopoly has completely failed. Again, it's not like NCR is composed of jumped-up tribals. They're a Vault-based civilization with Vault City and Shady Sands plus another Vault under its control. If the Shi joined NCR then they have access to all of that plus probable Enclave tech as well.

Really, the most damning thing is that Power Armor isn't able to defeat high end conventional firearms.

*COUNTERPOINT TO HIMSELF*

This isn't to say, of course, the Brotherhood wouldn't be a MASSIVE pain in the ass for NCR. The Brothers are HIGHLY trained soldiers, each probably equal to a member of NCR Special Forces/Rangers plus highly well-equipped. The Mojave Chapter has already lost the majority of its warriors at Helios One, which is why all of its grunts are so easy to kill - they're raw recruits trained after their warrior caste exhausted itself in a hopeless siege put on them by an insane Elder.

Even then, the Brotherhood could do a lot of damage to NCR. Actual trained Brothers would probably be akin to the Enclave Remnants.



I think there's a cool explanation that doesn't mean the MWBOS is dead or anything. It's just Caesar's Legion seperates the Mojave and NCR from the MBOS.

I can see how NCR does not see the Brotherhood as a serious threat. Still I remember the Devs saying NCR's switch to paper money was because the Brotherhood have been hitting NCR supply lines and gold shipments. People were not getting paid. I think the guy outside the Quary tells us this but he might have said Legion not Brotherhood. Brothehood might be smart enough to know they can't win head on and insted are now fighting a guerrilla war against the NCR. Still this war started over the Hoover Dam did it not? Brothehood no longer have the ability to take the dam. Even the Mojave Chapter has given up on it. Its possible a peace treaty or at least a ceasefire was agreed to long ago. Why continue a war over a Dam that you have long since been cut off from? NCR and Brotherhood for lack of a better word used to be friends. Friends sometimes fight.





NCR was not getting involved in a war in the Mojave. They were involved in simple expansion "building the frontier." Then there was the Brotherhood War and NCR won at least against the Mojave Chapter cutting them off from the rest of the BoS. Then the Legion came along. NCR was not going into the Mojave thinking they would go to war with anyone.




Mojave Chapter is cut off from the Original BoS. Any agreement to stop the fighting would not have made it to them. And its not like NCR is going to take time away from their war against the Legion to find the BoS to tell them. NCR did not even know about Hidden Valley , seems NCR thought the BoS was gone from the Mojave. Any NCR leaders that were against making a deal with the BoS could just have a personal beef with them. Maybe something traumatic happened as often does in War. Still NCR was willing to listen. Now if the NCR BoS war was still raging back West I doubt any NCR would be willing to make an agreement that is not total surrender to the NCR.




NCR and Van Grafts are enemies. It was not till New Vegas that they finally made a deal. Gloria Van Graff: "Time was we used to be able to hold our own against the NCR but thats not the case anymore. My family has enough men and weapons to field a small army, but the NCR can field a really really big army."

We don't know if NCR allied with the Shi. My point is Power Armour is like having a tank. If you are going up against people that have it and have energy weapons. You are going to want it yourself. NCR does not seem to have the Power Armour. All they have is the T-45d armour and its just a shell. It does not have the Power anymore. If they were with the Shi they would have working PA.

Gun Runners no longer make or sell Energy weapons.

We don't know the numbers of the Brotherhood but its clear they don't have anywhere close to NCR. Not by a long shot. Like you said maybe something like NCR's special forces. Still I can picture any war against the BoS all across NCR would be like a Kodiak Bear fighting off a pack of Wolves. Bear will win but it would be bloody.

The West Coast Brotherhood of Steel should die out.

The Midwest Brotherhood of Steel should just remain were they are or go into a civil war.

The Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel should remain in the Capital Wasteland and rule over it.

I suppose the question is how recent the destruction of NCR's gold reserves were. The switch to paper money could have been done years or decades ago timeline wise. The timeline seems a bit vague but I get the impression Kimball was a veteran of the Brotherhood War and obviously Father Elijah came from a Western Brotherhood of Steel fairly recently, so the Western BOS is still around in some fashion.

If I had to GUESS, I'd say the Brotherhood War probably ended not long before Kimball's term and Elijah left for the Mojave period around that time. It's possible that the Brotherhood is "contained" as opposed to being actively pursued.



I don't think the Brotherhood was ever interested in Hoover Dam. The whole thing was basically a gigantic cluster**** created by Father Elijah, who really was incompetant as a leader. He wanted Archimedes I and II above everything and basically, the NCR found the Brotherhood in the Mojave and decided to do some shooting at them. Elijah refused to abandon Helios One and pretty much wasted dozens (hundreds?) of Brotherhood lives engaging NCR in a straight-up fight while he tried to get the satellite weapon working.



Allies tend to shift very quickly in wartime. I wonder if Kimball's predecessor antagonized them somehow.



Yeah, I'm not sure but I think it mostly was just NCR stumbling onto the Brotherhood and being technically still at war - deciding to attack. It's also possible they wanted Helios One purely for the Solar Power generating abilities (in which case that was just dikeish of them). Outnumbered 20-1, Father Elijah continued to hold down the fort and endure attack after attack by NCR until almost all of his veteran soldiers were dead and half the chapter was destroyed.

He then abandoned them to go treasure hunting at Sierra Madre. I'm guessing the BOS then installed McNamara as his replacement (unless he was already Elder and Elijah just had seniority - I'm not sure if Elder means "head of the chapter" or it's a rank like Jedi Master).



The agreement with the BOS and NCR was done without Colonel Moore's consent and gets the Ambassador fired for it (if she's promoted to Brigadier General). NCR just seemed inclined to honor it despite the fact that Moore obviously wanted to just wipe them out.



Well, what I'm saying is we don't know how far the failure of energy weapon containment has been. The Van Graffs, I admit, could just be the sole party with access to energy weapons in-bulk.



The Shi had, with the help of the Chosen One, working Vertibirds. They also had AI and working infrastructure but there's no indication they have the ability to manufacture Power Armor. To be fair, neither does the BOS. It's one of the things that galled the BOS in Fallout 2 that the Enclave had the ability to manufacture Power Armor while they had to simply make due with Pre-War suits.

(To be fair, this isn't a sign the Brotherhood is backward - in real life, you can find the plans for an atomic bomb on the internet and they're real. Tom Clancy tested it and found out it was the case, it's just that the tools are THAT nearly impossible to find).

The brotherhood was not just obsessed with obsessed with Helios One. They were there for the Dam. If I remember right (not just mixing up stuff from Van Buren) the brotherhood had control of the dam. It was Father Elijah's obsession with the Helios that left the dam under manned. The Intro to New Vegas talks about scouts talking of a great wall across the Colorado which is why NCR went into the Mojave in the first place.

Shi might not be able to make PA but they can improve on it. A scientist working for the Hubologists can make hardened PA.

This is the case where I think some research needs to be done. From what I got, Mister House was the one who had the dam up and running and it was NCR coming to the dam and being essentially given it by Mister House that allowed their treaty. That's the story I got from Mister House at least. I don't think the Brotherhood ever really was at Hoover Dam.

I could be wrong but that's how I remember it.

(Mister House basically knew the NCR were going for the Dam and that they wouldn't want to fight him as long as Caesar's Legion was in the area - so he used it to establish his treaty so he could bilk the NCR of money until he could get the Platnium Chip)



Good point. I wonder if they just decided to go with Ranger Armor instead because it's almost as effective but low-tech.

You are just mixing stuff up from Van Buren, in NV they showd little to no interest in the Dam but rather at Helios ONE.

Thanks.

The Brotherhood has no strategic interest in Hoover Dam. They don't need power (they don't have a nation to power) and it's of questionable usability as a base compared to Hidden Valley. Their interest was solely in the satellite weapon at Helios One, not even in the actual plant itself. Even so, Father Elijah's obsession with it is above and beyond anything that is warranted.

(especially since it didn't even work and the obvious thing to do would be to abandon the plant and come back to retake it later, possibly obscuring the weapon's existence)

It may be easier for me because I only know about Van Buren from the Vault wiki.

I had a feeling I was mixing stuff up from Van Buren.

Then It would seem that the "NCR / BoS War" was just a Mojave thing. It could have caused bad blood back west but I can't see a full scale war.

When Perry opened up Japan did Japan instantly do a total about face and disregard the entirety of their culture in the interests of survival against the more powerful factions? They took action to reform certainly but even the Japanese did not do this overnight, they did not do so by entirely abandoning their culture (and were only capable of abandoning the Shogunate and clan-based government by directly appealing to an older historical tradition) and the Chinese failed utterly to seriously reform despite the obvious problems confronting them until far too late. I don't see how the Brotherhood also failing to seamlessly navigate these challenges and totally reform themselves into something completely different is unbelievable or that the idea that their response to such challenges might be to become more paranoid and xenophobic than they used to be.



Man for man they seem to still have a higher degree of military technology than any other faction in the country. Again let's use the Chinese example you brought up in which the Chinese people considered themselves the perfect civilization up to and often past the point when the West was bombarding their towns with impunity and forcing the Imperial government to agree to whatever they wished.

Just to be clear I'm not defending the Brotherhood of Steel's views. They're backward looking and serve no purpose I'm merely attempting to explain how the Brotherhood views themselves and the world and why it isn't unreasonable for them to be so resistant to the drastic change everyone seems to think it's weird they haven't adopted.



To them it was and still is. Give the Khans of F1 power armor and the rebirth of civilization in California would never have occurred. By keeping dangerous technology out of the hands of wastelanders the future was secured. Again from the perspective of a Brotherhood member who generally believes in preserving is it so crazy for them to think that the NCR, with all it's problems, might not be ready for the reintroduction of the dangerous technology they possess?



Well I don't think it's against the Codex to allow in some outsiders if they really want to join and demonstrate great value to the Brotherhood. Same thing happened in F1. Can't really argue with anything here McNamara is constrained by the Codex's precepts the only point I'm trying to stress is that the Brotherhood does have a higher goal beyond just "do what the Codex says" or "scavenge tech because that's what we do" which would be extremely unbelievable things for a faction to base themselves around and remain devoted to for centuries.

There's two sources of Rad-X if I recall correctly both of which are in the Hub. You should definitely go to the Glow it's one of the most atmospheric locations in Fallout IMO. We don't really know what happened to Lost Hills but I believe if it was destroyed someone in New Vegas would mention it. I assume in the NCR-Brotherhood war it is the focus of the fighting but it hasn't necessarily fallen to the NCR. In Van Buren the war was presented as a long grueling attritional struggle which the Brotherhood was slowly losing they may not yet have lost it in New Vegas.



Well they may not be ignorant but I'd imagine for most people curiosity would be more than overridden by the comfort of the society they grew up in. If you aren't absolutely sure what's out there the incentive to abandon the only way of life they have ever known I'd imagine for most people it would be minimal.



By New Vegas they seem to have become much more paranoid and less willing to tolerate outsiders having advanced tech whereas in the originals they seemed pretty unconcerned about groups like the Shi and such who definitely have advanced tech. I mean Matt actually gives you a copy of the Vertibird plans in F2. Again, however the Brotherhood cares less about reintroduction of technology (save for in a distant future which for most members won't happen until everyone whose not Brotherhood has killed themselves off) than about preservation. For all the good they're doing groups like the Followers given their anarchic nature and generally non-violent philosophy don't seem quite as organized and secure as the Brotherhood and the threat of an NCR collapse is real. That's always the Brotherhood's position. No matter what happens to the rest of humanity they have to survive and maintain the knowledge of past generations.



Becoming even more devoted to their ideals in the face of the challenges of the outside world seems a pretty understandable and realistic response to me.

Bizarrely, it seems to be sort of the reverse. Because of the vast distances and lack of trains or automobiles (or horses); the various chapters outside Broken Hills seem pretty independent. The Mojave Chapter seems to have avoided the Brotherhood War until Elijah brought it to their doorstep by refusing to leave Helios One.

The Mojave Chapter was probably uninvolved in attacking NCR's gold reserves for example. That was the rest of the brotherhood.



I don't think it has to be large change, just small change could open the door to more. It wouldn't be difficult to go on "recruiting drives" for "worthy individuals" when things are getting really small. They already let the VD in, after all.

Likewise, you could create lists of things where there's gray areas in the Codex. The Brotherhood doesn't normally gather non-military technology; it's not crazy that they could and share what they did have without giving every tribal a plasma gun.



True, it's just the distance isn't as great as everyone thinks.



I don't know, "Those who lay down their weapons invite attack." The Khans having Power Armor and Lasers would be bad but keeping it from the hands of people who would use it to FIGHT the Khans wouldn't be so awful.

I guess I'd respect the Brotherhood a lot more if they had the mission of destroying stuff like Archimedes II and the Satellite nukes.



Well, its clear that, "We do not allow them in." There's PRECEDENT but I think it's against the spirit of the Codex.



I don't know, if it was destroyed 10 years ago, it might be old news.



I suppose it depends on what level we consider losing.



I agree. Bluntly, there's also racism involved. The Brotherhood seems to consider everyone outside of their culture to be savages.