I would certainly consider it unethical if it were possible in real life, but it's an accepted practice in the culture in which my character lives. She views it as "normal," and doesn't ponder the morality of capturing a creature's soul.

Probably depends on context.

Animals are in the same category as vegetables when it comes to rights (eg: People kill and eat animals, so who cares if their energy is also used to power gear)
However, somebody would probably be pretty upset if you svcked the soul of their favorite pet, same as if you killed and ate the pet, rather than just killing it.

When it comes to monsters that invoke fear, as long as the threat is removed, I doubt there would be any moral debate.
There might be a problem if there was a useful purpose for a non threatening monster, but that would probably more because of their death, and not the loss of their soul unless there was spiritual association. eg: Killing and soul trapping some Daedric businessman (like Creeper) would probably upset the people who found the businessman useful. On the flip side, if there was some wise Daedra who was a spiritual leader, undoubtedly their flock would take extreme exception to the soul trapping, more so then simply death.

When it comes to "white" vs "black" souls, there is going to be fear and revulsion for the people who are vulnerable to this. (Hence why necromancy is banned). Would you really want to take the chance that YOU are being devoured by the process, and not just your energy?
So sure, svck the monster's soul, but even the worst criminal should not be shoved in a black soul gem (though a hanging is fine)

When it comes to indiscriminate soul trapping, well... the artificer of Umbra was put to death for the creation. So there is some line drawn where soul trap spells are fine (because they can be used with discretion) vs creating an artifact that soul traps anything it is used on. (Like Umbra)

My PCs (even the "evil" ones) never go out spoiling for a fight. Should a monster attack me, it is mine. Should a NPC attack me, its body, its soul, its very essence are forfeit to me to use as I see fit. Once a NPC tries to violate the PCs rights to existence, that NPC's rights are in turn absolved until such a time as battle determines the victor. Should I be the victor, your soul is mine.

To my understanding, there are more or less three types of souls.

- Daedra, who to my knowledge, are immortals.
- Black Souls, which are the souls of any sentient creature.
- White Souls, which are the souls of every other kind of animal, as well as some plants, seemingly.

Making these distinctions actually qualifies as speculation in and of itself for the most part, but there is evidence to support them, as people have pointed out. If I had to describe why a Daedra soul works differently than a Black Soul, it would simply be due to the fact that the Daedra are immortal, and the Black Souls are not. I figure this is due to the fact that although the body of a daedra can seemingly be utterly destroyed (the demon's soul), the spirit is permanently bound to Oblivion (memories, sentience, knowledge), and thus the soul is reborn and scoops up the properties of the spirit once more without fail. Man and mer, on the other hand, within the realm of Mundus, tend to be mortal. As a result, when the soul is destroyed, the spirit will also be destroyed alongside the body once the soul energy is used up. How it is used up, be it to create an enchantment, to recharge an item, or any other use soul gems are applied to, will likely bear the same result of the spirit ultimately being permanently destroyed. Like deleting data off a hard drive.

This of course means that the spirit and soul of any creature trapped inside a soul gem, deadra or otherwise, is actually trapped in a form of stasis. A crystalline object such as a soul gem certainly seems to share more properties with a battery than it does with a functioning organic body, complete with the brain necessary for the spirit to be bound to. A daedra's spirit will forever be bound to Oblivion, but those spirits of man and mer are likely utterly destroyed once the soul energy in the gem is expended. If the soul energy were spat back out of the gem into a body alongside the spirit, chances are, said body might retain the properties of the spirit and reanimate. Whether or not this has ever been done, I have no idea whatsoever. That would be an interesting way to live forever. The process of becoming a lich may also be related to a similar process.

From such speculation, I've always concluded there are no real ethical implications involved with any kind of soul gem. If you really, really get an immortal daedra miffed at you, though, and their spirit is finally released from its bondage back to Oblivion through whatever unseen processes are at work in that realm, then you had best be grateful to Martin and Akatosh that Oblivion is now sealed off. They would most likely explode back into Mundus and decapitate you if they could, seeing as, unlike black and white souls, they cannot be destroyed.

What of white souls? They seem to be related to creatures with either lesser forms of sentience, more simplistic forms of sentience, or more corrupt forms of sentience. Perhaps, due to the fact they are immortal, daedra end up falling into the latter, preventing them from being sealed as black souls. I'm curious as to whether or not vampires are considered to bear white soul energy, although that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. They may be dead, but they clearly have emotions and demonstrate higher levels of sentience than even most black souls would. Basically .. Spriggans, wolves, ogres, and other such creatures would fall into this realm, to my knowledge.

To bring this description a bit further, the differing colors of the soul gems may indicate the degree to which spirit and soul energy mix together to create energy within the batteries, the soul gems. An experience-rich spirit mixed with soul energy seems to yield much more energy in the form of black soul gems, whereas more instinctive-rich white souls, be they animal instincts or the instincts programmed into them by higher powers, tend to create less soul energy. Daedra, who would normally likely yield the very most possible energy due to the fact they not only seem to be sentient - but also seem to be ancient - do not yield more powerful results. This may, as I mentioned, be due to the fact their spirit's attachment to Oblivion, by its very nature, prevents their spirit energy from effectively mixing with their soul energy as well as it could. Not being bound to any given plane, and being relatively experience-rich and sentient, the spirits of Man and Mer make much better energy sources, seemingly.

All the while, of course, being trapped in the gem would be reminiscent of being trapped in a dreamless sleep. But all of this is just one interpretation of something we actually don't have a great deal of information on. What's important to remember is that Omega Soul Energy, obtained from mud crabs, is the most potent type of energy that can be harnessed into soul gems. This energy type causes the gem to turn an impending blood-red color which feels as though it's svcking all the energy out of your body as its held in your hand. This enchantment is said to imbibe armor with the ability to levitate and weapons with the ability to morph into spears.

I'm going into it (for my first PC anyway) like this:

Using the souls of beings whom she believes to be evil (like humanoid baddies and corrupted humanoids like zombies) would be akin to imbuing her weapons with that evil essence, so she won't do it. They killed enough in life/undead form, and she won't continue their plight.
With animals, seeing as she doesn't believe they can have evil intentions or desires like humanoids, she is imbuing her weapons with their ferocity, not their malevolence, which she sees as very different.
[Edit] She wouldn't trap Deadra, as she'd be too scared of their divinity or something.

I suppose you could call her superstitious.

I want to trap a rabbit , fish or chickens soul !!!

Good point... so what are you still doing here?

Ps i want to trap a cute little :bunny:



I want to be a shoe

That's why the first weapon I create is a Soulsvcking Sword... a sword enchanted with a trap soul spell. :hubbahubba:

I really worry for the next generation of humanity, having no imagination to consider hypothetical situations, and too self superior to consider them even if the imagination was there.

Well, our friend Vaskebj?rn doesn't approve of our little discussion folks. Let's everyone go back to the "what's your favorite race" threads.

One of the most excellent polls I've seen on this board, nicely done.

I voted choice:

5 for the first question
2 for the second question
2 for the third question
1 for the fourth question.

Not exaclty sure how to make logical sense of all that, I just kinda went one at a time and picked the first thing that seemed right to me. Trapping a human soul is pretty f-ed up, trapping an animal's soul is pretty not cool, but trapping the "soul" of something undead is a-okay with me, [censored] zombies. And summoned creatures are mine, so yeah.

I hope they have Umbra in Skyrim so i can just take that and never have to bother with the spell

Would I as a person soultrap things?

If we are talking about animals, then yes I would, since I barely consider them sentient, and the power I would get from their souls would be far to rewarding for me to care.

If we are talking about people, I wouldn't. Well at least not often. If someone really pissed me off, or I thought they were a terrible person even by my standards, then I probably would.

A little surprised at some of the negativity in this thread...

We had this discussion in the Lore section some time ago (I can't find it) and the upshot was that when a body dies the soul is released and the "energy" of the soul's departure is captured in a soul gem - so the term "soul trapping" is a colloquialism. There may be a difference in the case of Traven and the soul-gem at the end of the Mage's Guild questline.

It was also suggested that if the actual soul was used to power an item the release of energy by that item (a sword's magical effect "draining") freed the soul to return to the Dreamsleeve...or Aetherius - I'm still not sure what happens to souls at death (Sul speaks with the soul of his wife, Pelinal reappears in KotN, Baurus is under the impression Uriel goes to Aetherius, but Nerevar comes again [and again?]).

In either case its shady but not evil - though necromancy seems to be something other than energy (as implied above). Remember the Dunmer practice a form of Necromancy with their bone-walkers...though they'd kill me for calling it necromancy.

People, yes

Animals, no (they never did me wrong)(I would never soul trap a Bunny)

ethics dont belong in video games
except for bioshock

I don't think we know enough about the soul in TES lore to adequately decide.

The ethics of it would depend on what (if anything) is the experience of the soul once trapped. Is there a lingering consciousness? If so, what does it experience? Does it feel some kind of bodiless floating peace, an intensely claustrophobic entrapment, or nothing at all?

Assuming there is any consciousness linked to a trapped soul, we must also examine any lasting consequence. If a soul gem is "depleted" via enchantment, does the soul progress to where-ever it would have after death, or is it annihilated? What about cases where the enchantment is constant effect, and therefore never depletes?

The difference between black and white souls is more complicated.
It has to do with the protection of Arkay to those who worship the Divines.
Goblins and other similar sentient creatures are not protected and can be trapped in a normal gem.

Both the souls of the denizens of Tamriel and Daedra are immortal.
The difference is that a Tamriel soul gets recycled in the dreamsleave and loses all memories of its past life, whereas daedra are returned to the Waters of Oblivion.
One reason lesser daedra allign themselves with a Daedric prince is that they can pull their minions out of the Waters sooner than would happen naturally. Being in that state is painful and maddening for a daedric spirit.

The soul is not destroyed, neither in a soul gem or upon release.
The oversoul of the Amulet of Kings regained its memories of past lives, and Sul desired to destroy the Ingenium to release his love to the Dreamsleave.

The transfer of a soul into a new body via a soul gem has been done in Lord of Souls, with the Argonian Mere-Glim.

Then that leaves us the question on what the experience of the soul is while trapped or being used as enchantment fuel.
Given that Sul desired to destroy the Ingenium, can we assume that the soul can feel and experience imprisonment?

Much clearer explanation. I was just going off what I knew, after all. I'd offer you a cookie, or perchance some ale, but the goblins ate and drank it all. Little buggers.

Unknown.
Though I like to imagine they can.

In Morrowind and Oblivion I kept the souls of certain enemies in my house, so I could talk to them sometimes.
Thats what you get when you try to kill an Altmer wizard.

I did much the same. Left the gems containing the Dagoths sitting at the bottom of the fireplace. :flamethrower:

This thread has officially made an impact where when ever i'm going to capture a soul (even a Dragons) i'm probably going to feel bad D:

I majored in philosophy while in college. These kinds of topics are some of the most fascinating, and if you can utilize a bit of willpower, you will notice they can be rather enlightening. The topic brings up an ethical question about an action that can be performed in-game, however, the idea, the essence of what that action symbolizes, can be applied to our physical reality and the ethical issues present there. This is what makes lore-heavy games so great imo. They make me think on a deeper level about topics that the average Joe finds weird or unimportant. Such topics separate the intellectuals from the mob.

Is there any official lore anywhere that says it is only a soul's energy that is captured, but not its individual immortal pattern?

From the lore I have read, nobody can answer this question, which is why there is a ban on necromancy (using black soul gems to fuel magic, not necessarily playing with and being disrespectful of the dead).

So assuming a soul is captured (not just its energy)
At best it would delay a soul returning to the recycling bin before being able to be "reset" when the soul's energy is used up
At its worst it would destroy an individual soul completely (consumed to power things)
...or
Be an eternal prison for a permanent enchantment and the soul is still self-aware (eek)
...or another nightmare prospect
Be a crime against the natural order of things by mixing individual souls together (eg: Individual Altmer and Nord souls were used to recharge an item, and they were mixed together into some freakishly writhing hybrid, condemned to an agonizing eternal existence since they cannot be reborn in that state naturally)

The souls seemed trapped only for a brief time- ie: until they 'charges' run out of the enchanted item