I need contributions from creative minds!

I have been nourishing this idea of a large island that starts completely wild and untouched and, at the end, if the player plays right, turns out into a big business with plantations, cattle and small villages all over the place.

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NEW MOD SPECS - as of March 2010 (the original post is at the botttom)

After working for more than a year on several aspects of the mod, I am ready to put them all together now.

But, first of all, I want to thank again everybody that posted on the mod forums. I've been classifying the ideas and suggestions from the community. I must have read every single phrase at least half a dozen times and I think I got them well organized for future reference.

The specifications below are the result of merging my initial idea with many others that improved and complemented them. There are still many other ideas and suggestions kept in a wish list for future use.

The specifications below are the 'best scenario' for the first Beta version of the mod.
Apart for some small adjustments, I don't intend to add new concepts during this phase.
I may drop some of the concepts described if they prove impractical for any reason.

Some comments up front:
The mod scripts will be based on my http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1060697 (adapted to these specs) and my Construction Suit (Beta testing)
No NPCs enacting their trade (with the possible exception of the farmer, as I already have it [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw7wwQ22Ys8])
No interiors - NPCs will go in and out, but the player will not go in - possible exceptions:
? the Inn (as the player will recruit there),
? the Theater (again, because I already have it - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vROUU6I5XEE])
? and of course, the Player's Villa and Player's Office (see description)


1. GUIDELINES
Playable at any Player level
No interference from current game state
No interference to current game state
 Kind of a semi-TotalConversion? Or would it be a Semi-Conversion? lol
1.1. Player role
From the very beginning:
Must have the right to order NPCs around
Must have the right to determine what will be built
Must have the right to determine where to build and which architecture
 Therefore: Medieval Lord and serfs (maybe Owner and employees)

2. GAME MECHANICS
Game relies on a few major components:
Player - recruits NPCs, builds/improves/relocates facilities, manages the island
NPCs - the inhabitants of the island: a few that arrive with the PC and others recruited from a steady flow of visiting NPCs
Facilities - The places that, somehow affect the life on the island. Most require an NPC and produce some kind of material (e.g Food, brick), product (e.g ships) or service (e.g security). Some are required to go beyond a certain level (e.g sewer, granary).
Food - required to keep the population alive
Materials - Raw materials are used to build simple building (stone and logs) and to be transformed into more advanced building materials required for better buildings (bricks, planks and metal parts)
Indicators and Satisfaction - Several aspects of the island live are represented by indicators, which directly affect population satisfaction and, indirectly, affect productivity. A dissatisfied NPC works slower and may, on extreme cases, leave the island.

The player will influence the speed and direction of the community growth by:
? Creating and upgrading the facilities
? Recruiting and assigning NPCs to the jobs
? Keeping the NPCs happy, creating services facilities as the community grows more sophisticated.
? Providing the required inputs (e.g. weapons and armor for the guards)
? Providing optional inputs to improve production (side quests to be defined)

The player will have a 'Player's Office', a kind of War Room, from where the player will follow the evolution of the community.


3. FACILITIES

Each facility needs one or more NPCs to run the business.
Facilities are built at the lowest level and may be upgraded to higher levels as the NPC gets more experience.
Required materials must be available to build and upgrade facilities.

3.1. Extraction Facilities
Produce food and raw materials (logs, raw stones and ore).
? Farm
? Forest
? Quarry
? Mine

3.2. Processing Facilities
Specialized facilities to process raw materials into advanced building materials
? Sawmill
? Masonry
? Foundry
? Smith

3.3. Production Facilities
Specialized facilities that create products.
? Shipyard
? Wood works
? Stone works
? Metal works

3.4. Service Facilities:
Specialized facilities that provide services.
? Boarding House >> Inn >> Hotel
? Chapel >> Church >> Cathedral
? Healer >> Apothecary >> Hospital
? Barracks

3.5. City Improvements (don't need an NPC)
? Granary - required to store food
? Sewer - required to upgrade buildings
? Dock - required to import/export and attract more visitors
? Armory - required to store guards weapons and armor
? Parks and other city beautifications
? Public baths - enhance Health
? Public lights - enhance Security
? Paved Streets
? Paved Roads
? Theater
? Outposts to contain wildlife

3.6. HOUSES:
Where the NPCs live.


4. THE CITY
When creating new facilities, the player will choose the position and angle of the building, as well as the building size and architectural style.
The higher the facility level, the more options the player has.
Within the available building options for the facility level, the player may move the buildings around and change style at no cost, any time (just aesthetics).

Besides the facility buildings, the player will have a choice of adding some other constructions that will affect the community, like parks, street lights, city walls, etc. These constructions consume building materials.

And, very cheap or free, the player may add all kinds of beautification to the city: wells, trees, fences, flowers, benches, etc. No limits here. Anything! I mean it! Anything she can find in the game, she can add to the city.

For those that enjoy it, creating, improving and tending the city visuals may be a game all by itself.


5. NPCS
5.1. Hiring
NPCs will show at port and stay at the inn for a few days -or- naufrages?
Player may recruit / hire them and assign them a job.

5.2. Leveling
NPCs will accumulate wealth, change status and will be more demanding over time
NPCs will accumulate experience on the activity and will be more productive over time.
Wealthy NPCs may hire other NPCs as workforce or house servants

5.3. General
When assigned a job, will occupy a free facility, if available
When assigned a job, will occupy a free house, if available
There is a chance of NPCs moving together depending on the house level
May demand better house to match his/her status (or be unhappy)
May demand better work facilities to match his/her experience (or be unhappy)

5.4. Attributes
Each profession has a major attribute that determines how well an NPC performs his/her tasks:
Strength - for Farmer, Lumberjack, Stone miner and Miner
Intelligence - for Carpenter, Mason, Smelter, Smith
Agility (craftsmanship) - for Shipbuilder and Wood, Stone and Metal artisans
Personality - for Innkeeper, Cleric, Healer
None - for Guard

5.5. Production
NPCs will go to work at the beginning of the day if:
? Has 1 food -or- work at half speed + dissatisfaction
? Has a work facility
? Has raw material, if applicable

At the end of the day:
? Add product to warehouse or record the services provided
? Go home - if has one
? Go to the inn - if there is an inn + mild dissatisfaction based on status
? Sleep in the streets + dissatisfaction based on status

The quantity produced at the end of the process cycle is variable and will be affected by:
? The NPC attribute
? The NPC satisfaction
? The experience of the NPC
? The level of the facility
? The presence of optional objects and knowledge subject of side quests [to be defined]


6. CURRENCY
Cyrodiil gold has no use in the island

There will be some scripted, invisible indicators of the economic activity that could be considered as a currency;
As such, we could say that from the 'payment' of a day's work:
? Part goes to the worker - as a lifelong indicator of wealth / status
? Part goes to the owner of the facility - as rent
? part for the city treasure - as an economic indicator
? part to the Lord/Lady - as a guideline for gradually building the player home as a reward for the job well done (or game well played).


7. INDICATORS AND SATISFACTION
7.1. Personal Way of Life
Affected by
? Food - cumulative 10% dissatisfaction per day without food
? House - 10% dissatisfaction per difference in NPC status x House level
? Facility - 10% dissatisfaction per difference in NPC experience x Facility level

7.2. Personal Services
Affected by availability of (*)
? Bar
? Bath
? Theater

7.3. City Services
Affected by availability of (*)
? Security - Barracks, city lights, security force size
? Health - sewer and health care facilities
? Religion - shrines and religious facilities
? ?? - parks and city beautification

7.4. Economy
Affected by
? Production - Moving average of the daily production in units of material
? Treasury - Moving average of the daily production in units of currency
? Population - Moving average of the population size

(*) Moving average of the daily state of 1 point per building level, weighed by NPC status


8. MATERIALS
Materials are stored in a global, virtual warehouse to be used by processes, consumed or exported

8.1. Food
Food is used to keep the population alive.
A quantity of food is consumed every day by each individual resident in the island

8.2. Wood cycle: Log >> Plank
Wood is mostly used to build/improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)

8.3. Stone cycle: Stone >> Brick
Stone is needed to build simple houses. Brick to upgrade them

8.4. Metal cycle: Ore >> Ingot >> Metal parts
Metal parts are needed to improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)


9. MILITARY
Military forces affect Security Indicator
Military facilities affect Security Indicator
Citizens act as militia, until replaced by pros

9.1. Weapons and armor
Central armory, when built
Guards choose the best equip every morning
Player may add equipments to Armory

9.2. Building / Facilities
Barracks
Armory
Watchtowers
Walls

9.3. Ranks
Guards will go up in ranks according to the general rule

9.4. Pirates/bandits raids:
Pirates and bandits attack every once in a while
Nearby guards run to face them.
Citizens will complement the force, if necessary, or run inside.
Player may help
Unpredictable outcome
Outcome determines destruction of buildings / improvements / goods

9.5. Wilderness
Hostile beasts in the wilderness will keep away from improved areas after the player does a first 'clean up'.


10. REWARD: PLAYER'S VILLA
At some milestones along the way, the happy subjects will offer their leader a new building for the Playes's Villa.
The player will choose where to place it and will be able to 'decorate' the Villa exterior the same way he/she gives better looks for the city.


11. BEGINNING
The player arrives with a few NPCs so they can raise the island to a level that justifies visitors (that will be hired to increase the population)
The lore is still open.


12. ENDING
Events toward the end of the mod are still fuzzy and will be better defined when there is a working prototype to test.


That's all, folks . . . I hope I did not forget much . . . comments are appretiated, as always


[This same text has been posted in the three mod forums: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=915021&st=0 - http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=83048&st=160 - http://thewormhole.nfshost.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.0.html ]

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Original post (22-Nov-2008)



I need contributions from creative minds!

I have been nourishing this idea of a large island that starts completely wild and untouched and, at the end, if the player plays right, turns out into a big business with plantations, cattle and small villages all over the place.

Unlike most mod requests, I think I can handle most of the technical stuff (except modeling), but I am no good at all with words: creating story lines, plots, quest etc is alien to me, even in my native language. I could not even come up with a good title for this mod/thread. The subtitle is shamelessly cloned from a Nexus Forum thread.

That is why I am asking for your creative ideas for the main storyline, the side quests and the works.

To make sure this is possible, I will spend the next couple of months 'probing' the feasibility of the many technical features that will be needed, like how to turn a forest into farmland, how to get settlers to work the land, how to dynamically place rows of some plant so it looks like a farm field, etc.

During this period, I would love to hear the ideas you may come up with. Just dump your ideas in this thread.

These are the major guidelines I will stick to, so let's stay within their boundaries:

• The mod is intended to mimic a small, Middle Age settlement growing into a medium-sized city, including its effect in the surrounding area.
  
• There is no Main Quest as we know it. The player will need to manage and balance a few aspects of the game to keep things going. The player plays the cards right, the community flourishes. Plays it wrong or leaves things unattended for too long and things dry and shrink.
  
• The evolution (grow or shrink) should be based on player's decisions, not on player's actions. Although some decisions may require some actions.
  
• No big hero, savior of the world deeds. The need of the player's combat/magic abilities should be kept to a minimum. Maybe take care of some wild beasts or clean up a mine, at most. But even these could be done without the player.
  
• Side quests should be normal, day-to-day events/situations the player has to deal with (like a bad crop or a neighbor's quarrel). Some may need some kind of compromise from the player. Some, if left unattended, should interfere with the evolution.
  
• No sixual/advlt/mature ideas, please. In this area I can be very creative all by myself, thank you.
  
• [I will add more as they occur to me]

The remaining aspects of the mod are open.
These are some of my ideas, so you can get the picture of what I am talking about:

MAIN STORYLINE

I am not sure whether the player should be:
(1) Lady/Lord of the Land and the NPCs her/his subjects. Player 'rules' from a throne room. Subjects are granted audiences to present their problems (side quests). Main quest balancing would be discussed with a group of ministries.
(2) Mayor of the community. Hears rumors of problems and has to go somewhere to solve them. Main quest balancing would be done by passing laws and regulations.
(3) Anything in between . . . or a mix of both . . . or something else altogether.

How would it start? The obvious 'player finds a map of a lost island'? Would the island society start from a few natives or the player must hire a few initial settlers from mainland?

I imagine the end being an island with a fair sized city (with a nice port, some local commerce, etc) and a few peasant villages scattered over the island. Most of the area used for production and some wild life reserves to keep the environment healthy.

Is there a need for a storyline/lore to get from the beginning to the end?

And, of course, a good name for this mod is in order!

EVOLUTION ? GAME BALANCING

My original idea was a farm island, so the player would have to collect a certain quantity of whatever ingredient to works as seed (say 100 strawberries). The peasants would clear a piece of land and grow strawberries (the land would initially show the peasants working on it and, later on, show ordered rows of strawberry bushes). After some time, the peasants would harvest the strawberries and the player would take it to a major city to sell (later on, as the community grows, this would be done automatically by merchant ships coming to the island)

To start this process there must be enough free peasants available, money to pay them, . . . what else?

Much later, if the player chooses to invest in it (money?, time & effort?, resources?), there would be an Alchemy Factory of sorts and the crops could be sent there and the resulting potions would be sold for a higher profit.

A similar concept could be applied to
- mining > smithing > weaponry
- cattle > food > clothing?
- Forests > timber > houses or ships

At first, the player should do the hard work (like collecting seeds and selling the crop). Later on [maybe as a result of a side quest or based on the evolution level] some/all of these things will be done automatically [like a specialized peasant will do it or a immigrating merchant will provide the seeds and buy the crops]

What would the player gain/profit/achieve from being a good manager/ruler? Money? (I don't think so). Going up ranks within the community? Some very special items that would only be produced by the community at certain stages? Just the feeling of achievement?

What kind of things will be monitored and has to be balanced? I suppose some very basic society needs like: happiness, food supply, shelter, public health. Ideas?

SIDE QUESTS (some ideas to start with)

Some of the farm tools disappeared. Crop is in danger.
Production is low because a wild beast is attacking the peasants in the fields
[some NPC] is depressed because his/her companion is cheating on him/her
(. . . what did I tell you about my creativity? . . . )

It would be nice to have some (or all) side quests that would improve one aspect of the people needs while being bad to some other area. Like the player deciding one way it would improve general happiness but reduce production. Deciding the other way would have an opposite effect.

[YES, I am roughly think along the lines of the Civ/AoE games. Not the tech advancement or conquest aspects, just the growing communities. Maybe closer to The Settlers game of several years back.
NO, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or creating a whole new game. I just hope that it will be possible to figure out a small set of rules (within the game engine capabilities) that will make this kind of evolving mod possible]


I suppose this brainstorming phase is where one finds most of the fun of creating a mod. I have my fun figuring out ways to make things happen in the game. Later on, actually creating the mod is mostly hard work.

And don't worry whether it is possible or not. Make it happen is my job. [. . . well . . . just don't go overboard]

Thanks in advance

It's a very interesting idea. Although I have to admit I share your lack of creativity when it comes to quests/dialogue/story.

I could write for the mod if you'd like. It seems interesting enough. I could also model a little, like clutter and what not.

I'd recommend looking some at the Bloodmoon expansion of Morrowind. They have a similar thing with the Raven Rock settlement.

I'd say that the evolution of the community, and the player's role in that community, should have a lot to do with his fame/infamy during the quest. For example, a no-name adventurer hired by the settlers to provide some exploration and defense services, who becomes involved in the community and works hard for it, would probably become a mayor, someone everyone's agreed to put in charge in response to his skills and dedication.

On the other hand, if the Champion of Cyrodiil, or Arch-Mage of the Guild of Mages, or whatever else, decides to head up the settlement of an island, he's going to be in charge, period. If he remains involved, he'll be the cherished lord (or lady) of the island; if he sends them to this island and then disappears, they'll probably find someone else to be mayor, and that mayor is probably going to clash with the Champion over control if the player tries to return.

Try looking at the history of the colonization of the Americas for some examples about how settlement happens and the social dynamics that occur. Roanoke, Jamestown, Plymouth, for the English, the Caribbean for the Spanish, Arcadia and Canada for the French. Might be insightful.

Love the idea! I don't think I can be of much help but this sounded so fun i just had to reply!
I think a lot of diplomatic choices would be fun. Like a tribe/some natives living on the island when the player get there and the player could choose to befriend them, attack them or ignore them. If he choose to ignore them they might become a problem later. And different guilds should come to the island and the player should be able to deal with them in different ways. For example the player finds out that the dark brotherhood/thieves guild are hiding somewhere in the city and he can choose to deal with them (razzia/negotiate).

EDIT: Seriously I'm getting obsessed! Right now I'm just updating this site over and over and over and checking your post at the wormhole. I really hope you don't abandon this project!

Ah, this would be like the ultimate mod! :drool: I could maybe help with script, but not before around X-mas. If you still need a scripter around then, PM me :goodjob:

Brilliant idea. Its not too farfetched with mods like Kvatch Rebuilt and all.

Thanks for the promising ideas and encouraging words.
I am not going to comment on any one in order not to interfere with the flow of ideas.
And thanks for the offers. When the time comes I will check with you.

In the meanwhile, I am working on the first technical building block: an immersive, realistic farming script

What I am planning to do in the farming area is around these lines:

(The farmable (?) land will be previously divided into lots, but this will not be noticed as the land would be covered by the island's original vegetation.)

1-Player provides the necessary resources (farmers, tools.etc)
2-Player provides the seeds of [whatever]
3-Trees and bushes are removed from the lot (first time only, of course)
4-Farmers start to work on the land
5-Every few days (?) a new row of [whatever] plant/bush/tree grows in the patch
6-When the lot is filled, the farmers start to harvest
7-Every few days (?) a quantity of [whatever] is added to a container
8-When the lot is completely harvested, the cycle restarts.
The next season, the lot may produce a different item, depending on the seeds the player provides.

I is going well: I already have the farmer planting a few rows of strawberry bushes.
I will keep you posted.

Fantastic idea, glad to hear it's going well.

I hate to rain in on the parade but there is a mod like this going on already, it's NPC's with Jobs. Maybe you could drop by and see if you could grab some ideas from them or even give them a hand. They have a thread on here somewhere.

Ok, how about instead of Lord/Lady or Mayor of the city/town the player can become a council member. The council could consist of three people: The player, and two other people who helped you build the city. It'd be interesting... or not. Just throwing ideas onto the plate.

This project sounds familiar to me. A similar project is called NWJ “NPC With Jobs”.
NWJ is recruiting new members to help out, expand and finish their project.

I do not intent to undermine your modding idea, concept ore project. I only want to point out a similar project that is already out there and that it is in need of help by talented modders, and maybe by you QQuix.

QQuix:
NWJ still has 50% of there landmass free for free modding, it’s just a fought. I would say contact the NWJ Team on their public forum and ask them if you may join their team.

[BETA][WIP]NPC with Jobs v0.9.8, thread II
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=848000

The site:
http://npcwithjobs.com/

There public forum:
http://aledra.19.forumer.com/

Yeah that would be nice! Or maybe the player is lord/lady/mayor but before he does anything big he has to ask the council (It would be fun if they were a litlle more than just three people) and gain votes. Threaten, persuade, bribe etc. etc. I would love it but maybe other people would think it's too complicated (but I love complicated things).

This sounds like a fascinating idea!

It sounds like you're wanting a resource management plot. Indeed there look like others out there working on mechanisms (npcwithjobs, etc.), but I'm sure there's always room for more!

You mentioned Civ/Aoe/Settlers as a reference; I might add Interplay's 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_New_World'. This allowed the player to explore a landmass, then to found towns. The towns occupied a certain area, subdivided into cells. Each cell could be developed as farmland, mines, lumber tracts, etc, resulting in different resources as output. Different types of land would suit better use; grasslands for farms (especially besides rivers), hills & mountains for mines, forests for wood. Food level would increase the population and selling resources would increase cash. As the population grew, the town would increase its 'level', and each cell could be similarly increased to a higher productivity level - at a cost of resources and money.

So the town consisted of a series of developed (and undeveloped) cells, each requiring a certain manpower and resource input, but producing an output. More food meant faster population growth, but mines produce more valuable saleable resources. Higher levels of town allowed development of a larger area of cells. Bad choices would mean that cells wouldn't have enough resources to operate properly, would cost too much, and finances would drop. There was a military dimension too, as the player had to compete with other imperial powers doing the same thing. Not to mention indigenous tribes... Each town could also create soldiers, train them, equip them, etc. depending on available resources and infrastructure. Then you could go off to conquer a rival's town...

I think a variation of this idea might work in Ob. Initially the player might have been shipwrecked with limited resources, just enough to build a shelter and grow some food. Probably be able to cut wood, grow veg, maybe trap some animals. If the island is near a shipping route, then he could decide to sell to sell some fresh food and lumber to any passing ships (assuming he's happy not to be rescued), as well as buy implements. He could offer jobs to travellers, adding to the local population. Using the 'cell' idea, settlement areas could consist of central habitations surrounded by workable cells. Perhaps different employees could specialise their skills, so that miners would produce high ore output, refiners would refine it, metalsmiths would make artefacts. Different farmers could specialise in crops or livestock. Foresters would work forests, replanting as they felled, and specialist woodsmiths could produce higher value wooden artefacts. You could even implement a sort of Civ-type technology tree, where certain basic artefacts are a prerequisite for more advanced ones, as well as the skill requirements for the producers.

Building a basic dock would allow fishermen to operate as well as attract more ships; this could eventually grow into a major port that could handle large shipments. A warehouse could store impo/expo resources. Potential mining sites could be examined by scouts who would report on the likely lodes (or not) available. Each worker would consume food and want paid, each productive cell would need to consume resources to operate. Hmm.. another resource game to check out is 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrician_3' - this does quite a detailed job of creating production sources, selling to local and external markets, etc. Quite a bit of politics too.

If you can build in the mechanism, then a whole bunch of quests could go on top. Giant lizards invading your mine, thieves stealing to order from your warehouse, having to persuade a delegation from the Mages' Guild to enable some fast travel. Battening down to cope with an incoming hurricane, then clearing up the damage afterwards. Fugitives seeking shelter on your island; do you hand them over to the faction chasing them, or help them fight for their freedom...? Ah, such an island could open up a whole ship's barrel of plot ideas!

Anyway, do check out the aforementioned links. I'd also suggest you check out http://lightningshore.freeforums.org/; we've been considering some activity & economy modelling too, and would love some more ideas and manpower on it!

Well . . . there are things in common with NWJ, namely specialized NPCs.
And I thank you for pointing it out.

But I think the approaches are different and there is room for both. This is a first impression after a rather quick look in their thread and mod.

My approach is the evolution from an empty/wild island to a fully populated island.
And, whatever this 'fully populated island' may be, it will NEVER be as complex, elaborated and beautifully put together as what they have there. They have a large team working. And it shows.

As many others, I mod for the fun I get from turning a challenging (or "impossible") idea into reality. I am sure I will have a lot of fun creating the mechanics of the population/society/economy growth and shrinking and the many little knobs the player will have to turn.

I am afraid I cant join another team right now. I am already with the Dragon City Team, developing all the dragon flight scripts. (I anybody is curious: very large DC thread http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=45664- a little flight script info http://thewormhole.nfshost.com/forum/index.php/topic,1256.0.html)

But certainly there is a lot of room for cooperative work.
I will post a query at NWJ thread later today.
And, at first glance, they don't have much published on the lore, so your ideas in this thread may be useful to them also.

Botton line at the moment: I will keep working on (and having fun with) the technical building blocks and, if they prove feasible, I will build this mod next year.

PS: GuanoTwoZero, I did play CNW (I don't quite remember the game, but I do have that box) and the Patrician I or II (this one I remember quite well, but I didn't like the following one). Another one I liked was SM's Colonization, BTW. The mechanics I am aiming at are along these lines. Without the competition thou.

Ah, have fun with that - I think this is a brilliant idea, and would love to play it! Strategy games can be very satisfying, but combining with an 'in-the-thick-of-it' experience would certainly take it to a new level.

The idea I was suggesting (CNW, Pat) is to have distinct exploitable regions, and that each region can be used at different levels of efficiency/productivity. This would give the challenge of resource & people management, balancing various requirements.

Probably the early quests would be to guide the player into learning how to exploit sites. Further quests would guide more advanced functionality and set some goals about production. Once the player is familiar with the mechanism, then quests could add challenges such as throwing a spanner in the works and seeing how the player copes. Later quests could be much more story driven where the economic management may be just the background.

I would request that you make this available as a modders' resource. If you can get this to work, I think we'd love to use the mechanism in Mesogea!

Anyway, good luck!

Hi, again.

I am back for a progress report: (It would be nice if you keep the ideas coming while I work on the technical stuff.)

I am about to finish the first building block: the Farmer script.
I think it came out quite good and I will upload it tomorrow (I hope), after I finish the tests.

A little teaser for you:

The farming cycle is composed of three seasons: Planting, Tending and Harvesting

1- In the Planting season, the farmer goes to each spot in the field and plants a young, small strawberry bush
2- In the Tending and Growing season, the farmer goes to each and every one of the plants and the plant grows. At the end of the season all plants are full size.
3- The Harvesting season is self explanatory, I suppose.

The script turned out quite complex as it controls almost every single movement of the farmer.
And it is quite parameterized to make it (sort of) easy to change things like season duration, number and length of the rows of plants, size of the field etc.

A few sample pictures of the seasons:
http://cid-c0d2cdc94a2f644f.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/MySharedFIles/QQuix%20Farmer%201%20-%20Planting.JPG
http://cid-c0d2cdc94a2f644f.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/MySharedFIles/QQuix%20Farmer%202%20-%20Growing%201.JPG
http://cid-c0d2cdc94a2f644f.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/MySharedFIles/QQuix%20Farmer%203%20-%20Growing%202.JPG
http://cid-c0d2cdc94a2f644f.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/MySharedFIles/QQuix%20Farmer%204%20-%20Harvesting.JPG

[EDIT] GuanoTwoZero: Don't worry. Everything I do is modders' resource.

Took me a little longer than I expected, but I uploaded the farming esp http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20878.

It is mostly a visual thing, but the script may be of interest for other modders.

Let me know what you think and of any suggestions you may have

And the link above is to a TES Nexus entry that I created to hold all my 'proof of concept' esp's. The Realistic Farming is the second one.

[EDIT] Just noticed that the The Evolving Society initials are TES. I am tempted to release a few versions in a quick succession: TES1, TES2 . . . I bet this mod will get a lot of attention when it gets to TES5. LOL

Nice work, QQuix. I can't wait until you done however far of that may be.

First, this is quite literally the mod I have been dreaming of since I built my first stronghold in Morrowind. You are a god.
That being said, I think what can really make or break this is the role of the player in the overall scheme of the island. Reading the thread, it sounds like, politically, the island is all one entity. That is probably the easiest path and would probably be the most fun. I think the best option is if the player is eventually elected into a mayor or governor position. This gives the option of a quest to gain office (not a ton of butt-kissing like a real election, maybe convince these couple of people, do this to better the town, "debate" your opponent and call it a day) and it puts the player closer to the people. If the player is a noble, it gives them license to do what they want without any real regard for the locals. Getting public opinion on what should be opened, a mine or a new shop? could be interesting.
The big thing I disagree with on this thread is the idea of reporting to people. It is more realistic, true, but the added bureaucracy would take away some of the fun. I don't really like the idea of having to get all of my actions approved by an NPC, especially if every move I want to make involves convincing multiple people.

Now for just a personal hope... I think it would be amazing to be able to buy land (or acquire it some other way) and develop it for myself. Not for the town or local village, but just for myself. I'm thinking something like the house stronghold in Morrowind: start construction, find people to work there, set up protection, and find a way to make it economically feasible. What I'd really be looking for is something set apart from just any other house around town. Stuff like my own personal guards patrolling the gates, a butler and cook (who can actually do stuff for me), and having my mine/farm/whatever actually make me money! The biggest disappointment in Morrowind was making the eggmine useful and getting workers to run it...and then not getting anything for my trouble.

OK. Here are my initial ideas about the 'TES engine' (that is The Evolving Society engine):


SOME GENERAL RULES/ALGORITHMS:

a ) Things flow like this: A + B + . . . + Z >>[Process]>> Product

b ) A, B . . Z are inputs for the process.
They may be raw materials, tools, places etc
Some are required, some are optional

c ) Each process is a cycle that takes a fixed amount of time. Not the same for all processes
Examples:
Seeds + Land >>[Farmer]>> Food after 3 days
Axe + Trees >>[Lumberjack]>> Lumber after 1 day

d ) A process will not start unless all required inputs are available

e ) The quantity produced at the end of the process cycle is variable and will be affected by the presence/absence of optional inputs and external variables and events.
Conceptual examples: Availability of fertilizers would increase food production for that cycle. A completed side quest would increase a global variable (like happiness, health or Khet's Prosperity)

f ) The product of a process is stored in a global, virtual warehouse and may be input to other processes, consumed or exported.


With these mechanics, the player will be able to influence the speed and direction of the society growth by:
- Assigning an NPC to perform the process
- Providing the required inputs
- Providing optional inputs to improve production
- Somehow affecting some global attributes of the society.


PROCESSES and PRODUCTS

FOOD
Food is mostly used to keep the population alive.
A quantity of food is consumed by each individual resident in the island
A vanilla farmer should be able to produce food to keep 2 people alive
Food surplus is a requirement to increase the population

Required inputs: land and seeds
Optional inputs: Fertilizers, improved tools (plough?)
Other variables: Farmer experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Different food products like: cereals supply basic food to keep the population alive, while fruit production adds to a general attribute like health or happiness
- Maybe an individual would require an increasing amount of food along his life (this would be good for the general mechanics of the engine as it would allow the society to grow fast at the beginning and slow down as it gets bigger and more sophisticated)
- A second process to produce more elaborated food, which complements the previous idea

WOOD
Wood is mostly used to build/improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Wood is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Trees and tool (axe)
Optional inputs: Improved tools (?)
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Improvements in wood production could rely on an improved shop instead of an improved lumberjack
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic wood cutting, good to build basic houses and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships

STONE
Stone is needed to build/improve houses/shops (maybe roads)
Stone is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Quarry and tools
Optional inputs: Improved tools, some transportation technology
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Other later processes may be based on stone, like stone clutter or sculptures and statues


ORE
Ore is needed to improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Ore is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported
Initially, miners will explore existing caves, later they will be able to excavate new mines

Required inputs: Mine and tool
Optional inputs: Improved tools, experience or technology (a book?) to excavate mines
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic ore processing, good to build boats and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships
- Many other later processes may be based on ore, like building weapons and armors, clutter etc


Those are the basic ones I detailed so far.
Many other basic ones could be considered, like hunting or raising animals, fishing or even mud>>pots


MECHANICS OF EVOLUTION
Population growth:
The population will grow by one when:
- There is food surplus in the warehouse enough to keep the new member for a certain period
- There is an empty house

Considering all of the above, I imagine the initial evolution like this
Initial setup: An island inhabited by 2 farmers, 1 lumberjack and 1 mason.

Since the farmer produces food for 2 people, the population will not grow.
In order to start growing we need food surplus and a house (wood & stone).
The player will have to do something
Some options in this case:
- Get her hands dirty helping the farmer
- Reassigning 3 NPCs to farming and do the missing chores herself
- Just wait until there is enough wood & stone, build the house and then reassign all 4 to farming
- Go back to mainland and fetch some optional input to get more food production (like fertilizers)

Once there is the required amount of food in the warehouse, the population increases by one.
The new member occupies the new house
The player determines the profession of the new member

Based on some variables (population size?, happiness?, etc) new professions/processes will become available and the player may assign these new professions to new members.

These new professionals will bring some benefit to the island, but will also consume food, so the player will need to be careful to balance food production and population.


GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION MECHANICS

I am planning a final scenario with a midsized town in the initial landing place (population ~12) and 3 or 4 small villages (population 4 each) scattered around the island. Max population: 25-30.
I imagine half of them (the villagers) producing raw materials and the other half living in the city (merchants, smiths, shipbuilders, whatever)
At the beginning, let's say each NPC consumes 100 foods per day and one farmer produces 200 foods per day.
At the end, maybe 6 farmers will have to produce food for 25-30, meaning, a farmer will be producing around 500 foods/day. More if we have an increasing consumption over time.
Kind of the same logic goes for the other raw materials.


Back to the initial scenario:
The initial 4 NPCs live in 4 houses at the initial landing site (where the city will grow)
New houses are built in the far villages, so the new arrivals will live there.
I mentioned improved houses before: all these houses so far are Level 1

Somewhere along the line, city professions will be available and they will displace one of the original residents from the landing site. City professionals will require Level 2 houses, so the player has to spend some resources to improve one of the original houses or build one, or the new professional will not come/appear/whatever.
Some possibilities:
- Level 3 houses
- All professionals, including the initial ones, require/demand better houses as they become more experienced in their respective careers.


PLAYER's REWARD

First of all, a player's house is definitely in my plans. After all, this whole idea grew from an initial intention of building myself a house.
One possibility that I think would fit for a reward
- A growing house or castle composed of independent rooms
- Initially, it would have only the basic, usual rooms: living room, bedroom, etc
- As the island grows, the player would have the option of reinvesting the surplus back into the city (building new shops, hiring new skills, etc) of build himself a new, special room in his castle, like an armory, a library, a pool or even a bathtub (Jacuzzis are out)
- Maybe the rooms themselves could be leveled and the player would have to use society resources to redecorating them

- - - - - - - - - - - -

All of this, of course, will change depending on the technical or mental difficulties I may have when implementing.
Again, ideas are welcome.
And again, if you like any of this, feel free to use it in your mod at any time.

This reminds me of Civ III where you expand your palace when the population is happy with you. This sounds pretty good to me over all. Will the town and such become more self-reliant as it expands? I think constantly having to refill seed stocks myself would get really tedious really fast.

Yeah, theeq, it does look like Civ. And many others, I hope. Quoting myself from another thread, I am a great fan of strategy games and they more than inspired me. If I took a balance of my gaming on the last 25 years, it probably would show 75% strategy games and 20% RPG. My memory is not very good for these things, but I remember my preferred: Civ, AoE and Masters of Orion series, Colonization & CNW, Call to Power and Alpha Centauri. For the initial part, the big inspiration is The Settlers (I think it had a different name in the US). It has been a long time, but I still remember the cute animations and how the little guys got mad if their raw materials did not arrive on time.

And yes, seed supply and such will become automatic somewhere along the line. Not sure how yet. It will depend on the engine I am going to build. One idea that occurred to me was that the 4 initial NPCs would kind of grow with the city and become the player's best friends or ministries or whatever, and they would take care of the day to day business on behalf of the player

Yes Theeq, he plans to make most processes automated eventually.

Now, my idea:

You buy the island for a mere 5000 gold (after all, there's no buildings on it, except maybe an old imperial fort ruin) from Heinrich Oakenhull (Vanilla ship owner in anvil). Once you've bought it, he can ferry you back and forth in his ship (make the ship, and script the beds. When you sleep in a bed, you wake up, and the ship is at sea, with no land visable. [like the quest with the bloated float] Then you can have a meal on the ship, talk to Heinrich and his crew, then when you sleep again, you're at the island. It's completely wild, with plenty of real life animals, but not too many magical ones. So it's feasable to hunt there, and you can hunt boar, bear, deer, wolf, etc. etc. Now, of course, you need to begin settling it. You return to the Imperial city, and pay the black horse courier to put an add in their next broadsheet. You can pay people to go and pay builders to build houses for them(this will cost more, but will stimulate faster initial growth), or you can promise them a certain amount of land and as long as they farm it for you, they own the land (this way, you have to pay a small amount [their ship ticket] and provide materials for them to build their houses.) Once there, happily in their houses, they need to clear some of the land to farm (until they can begin farming, you'll have to provide food [you pay, say, 500 gold, and it is shipped to the island, so you don't have to make trips with it in your inventory.) Once they've got some fields cleared, you'll have a HUGE amount of wood, just sitting around. Of course you can do with it as you like, but the logical thing would be to construct a proper harbor/simple wooden docks.(it costs less to get stuff imported now, because unloading is much easier) [with time, this can be upgraded with a stone seawall, which will allow you to build warehouses right next to the harbor, allowing you to 1: stockpile more stuff. 2: further decrease the cost of imported goods, and increase the cost of exported goods.] Then begins farming, and you no longer need to provide as much food, but you may still need to supplement the food they're making. From there, you can go any number of ways in continuing the growth.

There's my idea of how you could have the player start the settlement.

Some quest ideas: pirates are attacking, and you must convince them to let you alone. This is an excellent opportunity for a quest with multiple ways of solving. (You can fight them yourself, you can hire the fighters guild to fight them off, you can hire the dark brotherhood to kill their captain, or you can negotiate with them. [defeating them in battle, or hiring the guild to fight them results in them being all dead, and you get a ship or two. The dark brotherhood option results in them leaving you alone. The coolest, and potentially most lucrative one, negotiation, could end up several ways. You could just get them to leave you alone, you could fail, and they'd be back, meaning you could try any of the options again, or the coolest, you could get them to act as privateers! They would keep you somewhat safe from threats from the sea, they would attack merchant ships (not yours) and other cities (not actual cities like Anvil or leyawiin) providing you with all kinds of assorted materials and goods, some protection from other pirates, and all for safe port and supplies!]

THE PURGE!!! Some of your people have been killed in attacks from various things. The first and foremost: goblins. There is a powerful clan of goblins residing in a cave near the city, and you must wipe them out. (once again, Fighters guild, do it yourself, but there's also the option of asking some of your ex-adventurers to clear it out for you. Then there could be a vampire lair on the far side of the island, in which you could hire a vampire hunter or do it yourself. There could also be some other dungons as part of this quest, but no bandit or maurader's (the island hasn't been visited in hundreds of years untill you came and started the town but you've kept strict control of immigrants, none of them have gone into the wilderness and not returned.

Both of these quests should only be triggered when you have a pretty well developed city.


And now a small quest for when you're still in the minor village phase:

should only be triggered if you have a person hunting to provide some food.

The missing hunter: A hunter hasn't returned for two days. You've got to find him. You can nobly search yourself, or you can ask someone else to do it. If you do it yourself, you'll eventually find them, laying on the ground, in a puddle of blood, but not dead. There should be a dead boar nearby. They tell you how a boar got too close, and gored him in the side pretty bad, and he fell. And when he fell, he fell in such a way that he broke his leg and could not make his way back to the village. You make a splint for him, and walk with him back to the village.


I certainly hope you can figure out how to pull this off. And may I suggest that once you've got the basis for everything laid, you know, got some good progress, got the scripts working, got the beginnings of a dynamic town, etc. etc. That you get a team together, then you can do more, therefore leading to a fuller, more fleshed out town, not just a skeleton of a town with some scripts that make it dynamic. And you could add more quests. You could have a Fighters guild hall eventually, and maybe it's got some quests of it's own. (If you're Master of the FG, then you could simply make the decision to build a hall yourself. If not, you need to talk to Vilena and convince her that it would be a good move, and you might need to seal the deal with some cash.

About the seeds: just remembered why I created the seeds in the first place:

The seeds are the way the player determines what should be planted on each field.

The player may want to change the crop:
- For visual effect - as the farmer may be the only NPC with realistic animations along the day (see previous post about Realistic Farming)
- To get different types of food, supposing this concept of variable 'nutritional' attributes gets implemented.

Hey! . . . just occurred to me that farm fields may produce something other than food. Maybe cotton to make clothes. What else?

This way the player just gets each type of seed once.

Going a little overboard here, we could have leveled food also. How about something like:
- Level 1 food - 1 nutritional unit - Local flora. Seeds found in the wild. Farmer finds them himself.
- Level 2 food - 2 nutritional units - Kind of common, but not native to the island. Player needs to buy them somewhere else and take them to the farmer.
- Level 3 food - 3 nutritional units - Really hard to find. A quest?


And, Ben Cope, although I have not planned that far ahead, I suppose you are right about putting a team together after the engine proves feasible. Not only because it would take an eternity to do it alone, but, mostly, because I also don't have the artistic talents to create pleasant, balanced exteriors.