That's not the fault of the perk revamp itself, it's more that Bethesda dropped the ball on the dialogue system and failed to capitalize on that improvement, which I agree with you.

Well, I guess if you say so then you must be right.

You seem to force your opinion on others, and to me that is not cool. Some of us do actually like Fallout 4 more than 1,2,3 and New Vegas, and might even think its a better RPG. Deal with it!

Dude, based on your posts in this thread and the other thread, you really don't seem to know much about RPG's, and you don't seem to even really like them either.

I mean hell, the only RPG's you even like are those which stray the furthest away from being RPG's.

your belief of "everything is subjective!" is fallacious, and it is the reason why definitions are being dumbed down.

It's not an opinion though. You can't chalk everything up to simply being an opinion, you may as well start telling people it's just their opinion that the sky is blue.

And this, honestly, is kind of a huge problem to all of us original fans. It is honestly the most depressing [censored] thing I can think of as not just a 'Fallout' fan from the late '90s but as a PnP and cRPG fan. Ugh.

Also, LOL@TeamBacon. Come on, man.

I like Fallout 4 more than any other Fallout game.

I think Fallout 3 was good but not great, I think New Vegas was a worse game than Fallout 3.

I think Fallout Tactics had an interesting story but was boring to play and way to hard without using mods.

I think Fallout 1 was kind of boring but overall an ok game.

I didn't play Fallout 2.

I think Mass Effect 3 is the best RPG ever.

If that depresses you, then I apologize, but that is a summary of me and what I enjoy.

You can tell me I am wrong as soon as everyone decides on who is the 'grand master of all things videogames' and they decide of an official definition of RPG. I am not sure who gets to decide such things, but when I get an answer to that I will repsect his/her opinion on it.

What I like is whatever Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, and Fallout 4 are. If that is not an RPG, then I guess I don't like RPGs and if it is an RPG then I guess I do like RPGs.

You have the worst taste I have ever seen. Literally everything about your post is awful.

Sorry, I know I'm being a jerk, but you too would have an abrasive attitude over this subject if you knew how suffering it was to be an RPG and long-time Fallout fan.

I've heard a lot of moaning about the "dumbing down" of Fallout 4 by removing the skills, but I kinda think most people are missing the point. I don't even know if it is properly a "dumbing down" move, but one thing I can see for certain is that they got rid of skill grinding. I for one am pleased in the extreme that I no longer feel that pressure to grind skills and thus forcing level rises.

I can't tell you how sick and tired I got of sneaking everywhere I went to grind my sneak up in skyrim, or the constant pounding away at smithing and enchanting so I could play on Legendary (if I wanted) and still be unbeatable. Now, I just have to choose my starting SPECIAL wisely if I want a stealth character, or a melee fighter, or a hacker and follow through with the right perks after playing in any fashion I want.

You know, it was often just painful in Skyrim listening to people who would grind up their skills and then complain about dragons that got away...

It is immature, aggressive attitudes like yours that give the Fallout forums their bad reputation on this board. You damage your own positon with this attitude. If you argued your position with a bit more maturity and respect for others I might be able to take what you say seriously. As it is, I (and, I'm sure, others as well) discount what you say because of the way you say it.

Quite a bit more positive-81% than negative, and personally I like seeing my character talk.

http://imgur.com/ZsTvTSD

It's not the removal of skills that's dumbing it down, it's the removal of:

• Traits
• Reputation
• Karma
• Low INT dialog
• Perk and SPECIAL checks
• Ammo types
• Challenger perks
• hardcoe mode

Less:

• Skills
• Perks
• Weapons
• Clothing
• Factions
• Quest choices and alternate solutions
• Dialog options and branching

The addition of hand-holding features such as quest markers and unkillable NPC's, and shallow world building and writting.

In my defence, he does have terrible taste.

I agree 100%. I like the new system better. Having Special, and then Skills, and then Perks was just too many different things and too much menu crawling for my taste.

I like the new perk system a lot, and there is a definite strategy to it if you choose to just enjoy it instead of looking for the bad.

I found that the new system added to the story that made my character. My particular Special build was not very good to start off the game, and as a result the things I did reflected that. I spent the first 10 levels being a scavenger and collecting stuff, spending my perks on things that allowed me to better gather supplies.

From level 15 and on, however, I started building my character into the scientist I envisioned, she started to take on a more evolving personality and started doing quests that represented that, still avoiding large scale combat because of the whole 2 endurance and 2 agility thing with no perks spent in combat.

I would simply overpower my enemies by having superior guns, because I had supplies I had scavenged and I had smarts.

By the time I got gun nut level 3 and science level 3 and had several good quality weapons crafted, I finally started spending points in upping my agility and getting the perks for pistols and vats and all that fun stuff. I crafted most of my stuff into pistols as a result of that choice, so my 'Righteous Authority' Laser Rifle became an over the top powerful long laser pistol.

At this point I was ready to take on the world and started doing the more aggressive missions of the game. No longer did I need to rely on just my brain and lock pick skills, but I could take out an entire room with my newly crafted pistols that only a truly awesome scientist character could make... All built off those first 10 levels I spent building a scavenger.

I love how that story comes from the gameplay dynamic in a way that Skills never did. I love even more that if I create a different Special build in my next playthrough, I am going to be seeing the game from a totally different order as a result. I might be more brave, but I also won't have the master lockpick perk the very second it becomes available.

It is a great system in my opinion, not a paper tower like older Fallout games.

yeah Fo4 is definitely different than 3 and NV, but when you have a community to mod it, it doesn't completely kill the rpg concept.

Otherwise, this new style reminds me of the farcry series.

i worry that future fallout games will turn into COD play style. =S

I must be one of those 5 to 6 people, but I have always been a firm believer in people taking ideas and improving on them. If we speak criticism it is in hopes that we don't get drowned out.

I don't hate Fallout 4, quite to the contrary. As I said in the dialogue thread, the little pieces of information in the terminals, the atmosphere is still oozing and dripping. But the main storyline falls flat once again. It's much like the thread that said this game is like a drug. The exploration and the environment and just being able to be a character in the game still gives me that great amazing feeling that FNV or F3 gave me. BUT I am pulled out when my character's motivations don't match mine or match the ones I want to create for my character.

I get pulled out of the suspension of disbelief and I feel jaded and far removed from the game.

I have always held firm, that there is a game out there that can support all types of gamers. It's whether or not you put the effort into doing so. It means looking at what everyone has to say and not just the voices that tell the five or six they are wrong because thirty people think they are wrong.

That's great.

But that solves nothing. And it doesn't make anyone happy.

Instead it causes the flamewars and the arguments. Instead of everyone acknowledging their different opinions, but not denying fact when fact is given out with credential resources.

I want to love F4, much like I wanted to love Skyrim. But I can't. Something in both games pull me away from the experience that I had in previous titles. And that experience is the beauty and ability to create my own stories and my own characters. I don't want motivations or personalities of my characters to be pushed on me. I don't want backstory pushed on me and if you push it on me, you best do it in a darn good way that I bond with it.

I bonded a lot more with the F3 backstory than this one.

I dunno, traits always seemed to me to be just PIA perks that took away as much as they gave in the name of balance. I usualloy went with "Fear the Reaper" and "Skilled" but more often than not I ended up wishing I'd just ignored the traits entirely. Karma always left w me kinda wondering why it was that I could kill the powder gangers for instance and all is well, but if after killing them I steal their guns and ammo I take a karma hit...

Ammo types? Most of them are there in FO4. Except .22, and that was useless in any case most of the time... 5mm, 10 mm, .45, .308, 5.62, .50 How many do you really need? I admit I kinda liked the lever action rifles, but not so much that I feel a need to complain.

I do miss hardcoe... but i have to presume a mod (or several) will be made, eh?

What about factions? Doesn't FO4 have the BoS, the Institute, and the Minutemen?

I'm not certain what you're talking about with perk and special checks, because obviously the checks are taking place. How else could I fail an attempt at persuasion? How else could I be informed that I don't have the requirements needed to add a suppressor to my sniper rifle?

I said there are less factions, not that there are no factions. Outside of the main story factions, no others seem to really exist. Whereas in New Vegas you had dozens and dozens fo side factions to interact with.

As for speech checks, the issue is that now the only speech checks you get a strictly tied to Charisma as a general universal speech check. In previous games, all of you skills, SPECIAL, and even certain perks gave you unique dialog checks. That was great, it made sense and gave more options for a wider variety of character builds and more detail beyond just typical "Gunner" or "Smoothtalker"

Hell, you're lucky to find a quest in Fallout 4 that even lets you be a smoothtalker. Nearly every one I've done or been given has been to go clear out raiders from a location.

dozens of factions in NV ? not really but they didn't do anything anyway, the great khans? the boomers? the powder gangers etc, they don't do anything, you don't find em anywhere except where they are at, what interacting do you do with them? no much of anything outside a few quest related type stuff and thats it for the rest of the game, none of the factions do anything, you don't find the boomers out on patrols, or the khans, the powder gangers just stand around holding a stick of dynamite, the factions don't do anything so to me Nv was boring and an empty map.

The controversy with this game come from the fact fallout 4 don't target the same player as the other fallout of the series.

This fallout is a fast action fake rpg. The game was simplify as hell, you have no real impact on the world. you get some of the best weapons and armor right at the start, the many npc non-killable ....

At the origin fallout was a hard rpg where you had to play and fight for earn powerful stuff, where your choices really impact the world, not only the main quest ( and even the main quest the impact is low), where you choose the background of you character ...

Now this Fallout is clearly made for younger player and mostly console player, the graphic are ok but nothing amazing, many little features are design for console controllers .... I could continue with a long list of examples.

At the end this game is not bad, but it barely deserve the name fallout. The problem of so many complain is the fight between people from the firsts fallout generation and the young player.

Let face it for who like me who grow up with the firsts fallout we are old and the video game evolve in simple game and fast game. It's over the time where you had to think about your action and really take care about how you play. Now is the generation of COD player, Hollywood games

a lot of beautiful effect, a fast action, no need to think so much about what you do and how you play.

And of course deep inside the game(s) are empty and the companies don't bother to do more deep and complicate game, because it cost too much and will not be sell so good. They just want make money and face it COD it sell a lot more than any other fps simulation ( for example ARMA 2 or operation flashpoint ... )

And for the end i will take the example of the series of the X games. Take a look at X3 ( and all his "extensions") this game was deep and complicate you had to really think about your action and now take a look at what happen with X rebirth. They tried to port the X series on console and for console players. And at the end the game was all about the look and all what made the heart of the X series was simplify at the maximum and was really bad qualities if not unplayable. That the future of fallout and sadly the games in general evolve in this way and make more money.

I stopped taking you seriously right there because I have serious doubts you've even played the game. Play the BOS quest line and then explain how you have no impact on the world.

Of course you have doubts, because you can find nothing for argue with that, so you attack me on something nobodies can check. So play the other fallout and look how you impact the world around you even out of the main quest. I finish the main quest with the institute and see some patrol sometimes and some synthetic is diamond city and the rest of the work continue without change, the npc react with you in the same way as before you finish ... that hardly a big impact on the world

And if you want pm your email adress and i send you the save of my game

What else are you expecting to change? You said there was no impact, but that is change. The other npcs are just people living their lives and survive.

Just play older fallout and you will understand. If you did you will also understand the complain of many player about fallout 4.