The famous dynamic snow : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:12 pm

Maybe it's icy rocks and surfaces which do not leave any noticable footprints. Up in the mountains snow often transforms to a more icy surface. It's not always fresh powder snow everywhere all the time.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:17 pm

The snow gets blown about,from the mountains,and even when the dragon takes off,it swirls snow.
That pretty dynamic to me.

Sadly, we can't tell how dynamic that really is. But it looks great in any case, I agree.
I just hope there will be different kinds of snow - what we saw in the trailer and screens all seemed like powder snow. Which is great for swirling snow and snowboarding, but not so much for snowballs and footprints that stay longer than a few seconds.

[/topic]

"Skyrim isn't released yet, so there is no point in talking about anything. [/forum]"

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:01 pm

First of all, I realize the majority here doesn't want to hear any criticizm, especially about the graphics.
And that's fine, you don't have to bother yourself with such topics. By now we are all familiar with your reasoning ("Gameplay is more important", "You are wrong, it looks incredible", etc), but I don't feel it will contribute anything.
Most of 'us' don''t criticize for the sake of flaming or hating, but to give constructive feedback, without which The Elder Scrolls wouldn't be where it is today.

Now, on topic.
The first descriptions of "dynamic snow that falls realistically" raised high hopes, and although I didn't actually expect real particle physics, I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed about the snow we saw in the trailer.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1305/ss20110226104739.png:

The rock on the right looks really, really nice. The deeper parts are filled realistically, and the rock itself blends perfectly with the surrounding 'flat' ground.
However, the other rocks don't fit. Their snow is darker, and they don't blend into the ground at all.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/192/ss20110226104818.png:

The rock Dovahkiin is standing on is covered in snow on all sides. Furthermore, the snow-covered parts stay at the same height as the underlying rock, which indicates a simple re-texturing. This makes it look like a white rock instead of a snow-covered rock.
Again, the boulder on the right looks much better, but the snow on top doesn't seem to accumulate either, it's 'just' a new texture.
In case this is supposed to be part of a glacier: I'm sorry, it looks great.

Some examples of real snow-covered rocks:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TCNoY2oICdw/TS76oi6vqjI/AAAAAAAAG7o/zSCsMlVcvag/s1600/angry+snow+rock+01.13.11.jpg: The more snow accumulates, the less it imitates the surface of the rock.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nXp7fPRIhO8/S9q0P7Wre2I/AAAAAAAAARw/OnnB3j9YOJE/s1600/snow_rock.jpg: A similar example; the snow only covers the top and generates a new, smooth surface.
http://www.cepolina.com/photo/Europe/Italy/Piedmont/Limone/2/Limone_snow_rock_soft.jpg: This is a good example of a rock with less snow, and how it blends into the surrounding area.

Overall, one of the main problems seems to be that the snow doesn't create a new mesh, thus just "recoloring" the rock (which I think could be darker in the first place to create a better contrast between the rock and the snow). This is the part I don't think they will be able to change. Sadly, this means there most likely won't be snow-covered trees either - the ones we saw looked more like frozen over.
But: They already have the means to place the snow where it would fall naturally, e.g. not at the sides of the rock. Also, I'm sure they could equalize the brightness of the snow, so it doesn't appear darker on certain rocks and blends better into the environment.
However, all this nitpicking is just about closeup snow. From afar, the http://cms.elderscrolls.com/sites/default/files/tes/screenshots/CompositeMountain_wLegal.jpg.

What do you think about the snow in Skyrim?

I agree the rocks aren't realistic becose there should be MUCH more snow...so that you couldn't see the rock itself....otherwise its ok in my oppinion

why did you take pictures of the snow covered rocks from side...this way no one can see how they look from above like in screenshots...thos they should be completely white from that angle

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:29 pm

It doesn't look painted to me, The only thing that makes it look painted is the clouds/fog imo.

No if you take a closer look, they are just sprites.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:52 am

I'm really hoping this is "extremely light snow dusting" and not actual snow covered, because there is NO depth to it at all, the guy runs around and it looks just like a simple recolored texture on top, no depth to it at all.

When they talked about dynamic snow an dhow it "builds up" correctly I was hoping this meant snow would have depth and your feet, etc would actaulyl go into it rather then staying on top.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:18 am

The snow gets blown about,from the mountains,and even when the dragon takes off,it swirls snow.
That pretty dynamic to me.

The snow was actually moving before the dragon even took off. And, it persisted for long after he was away. I have about 270 screenshots of that scene.

They simply have an effect where snow blows off cliffs in the wind.

Although, as we have seen, when a dragon takes off from the ground they do have an effect for that. However, that shouldn't be considered dynamic, unless when the dragon leaves, you can actually see where snow was displaced. If you don't it is just an effect.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:50 pm

I'm really hoping this is "extremely light snow dusting" and not actual snow covered, because there is NO depth to it at all, the guy runs around and it looks just like a simple recolored texture on top, no depth to it at all.

When they talked about dynamic snow an dhow it "builds up" correctly I was hoping this meant snow would have depth and your feet, etc would actaulyl go into it rather then staying on top.

Since the GI article, I have tried to get people to understand that nothing has ever implied a "3D" or "volumetric" snow buildup in any of the information. I'm not saying there won't be. I'm saying there is no indication.

But for that matter, there are very few ways they could implement it on consoles. It would certainly not be "dynamic" in the way everybody has been using it. Dynamic only has ever meant NOT STATIC. Which means, the snow is NOT like Bruma where there snow is baked into the objects.

The "snow dusting" effect has actually been explicitly described in other magazines, which is in contrast to GI's artistic license and hyperbole.

With that said, there is SOME visual evidence for snow with actual volume. In the trailer there are two parts:

- The city at night
- The mountains at the very end

In the city, you can catch some snow drifts... One in the background and one in the foreground. If you look at the mountains closely at the end of the trailer, there is some "pop-in" in the crevasses on the mountain. Specifically, the mountain closest to the camera, with the ruins atop it. I only noticed the snow "changed" here because of the LOD pop-in. I have absolutely no idea if these are baked into the mountain meshes themselves, and as such what I was witnessing was just a transition between mesh LOD.

The other possibility is that they precompute all the static geometry with an algorithm, something like marching cubes (voxels), or something similar, which knows where to start filling in volume as it snows.

If that is the case, it is certainly not "dynamic" (how everybody has been using the word)... It is either precomputed, or even hand-placed, and does not react the way you think. You're not going to be kicking around snow, or making snow angels... You would need a particle simulation (and a supercomputer) for that.

The snow gets blown about,from the mountains,and even when the dragon takes off,it swirls snow.
That pretty dynamic to me.

Particle effects, bound to specific parts of the terrain. The "snow" cloud when the dragon takes off is attached to the dragon. It's actually dusty, and kind of tan/brown... And I didn't see any snow particles... it was a solid cloud. Also when the dragon lands (crashes) the cloud is very very brown even though it's on snow.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:15 pm

The snow gets blown about,from the mountains,and even when the dragon takes off,it swirls snow.
That pretty dynamic to me.

This. Did anyone else notice this at the end of the trailer...

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:39 am

This. Did anyone else notice this at the end of the trailer...

Anyone that has done a frame by frame capture of that scene has about 270 screenshots of the dragon taking off. That snow was moving long before the dragon took off, and long afterward. It is an effect the occurs on mountains naturally. If the dragon really affected the show, he would have blown it off the ruins up where he was sitting. You didn't see that happen.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:28 am

i dont think they'll be able to make a really dynamic snow until they add tesselation

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:12 pm

I believe your last link is just concept art, which most of the time looks gorgeous.

NAH ITS NOt, you can see the shadows don't look photorealistc, and we can see some texture problems if you look hard to it, yea, not saying it svcks because of this, just saying that this picture was taken into the engine

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:49 pm

It's hard to tell. It seems like if it doesn't look like the snow is deep.
It looks more like a shader layer on top of objects.

We'll have to wait and see for more.

I really hope for real accumulation, or at least an illusion of it, where you really walk in deep snow. Like up to your knees or something. Would be awesome.

well real accumulation would involve things I don't think they would be doing. But you are probably right in thinking it is a shader effect, at least in part. I have trouble thinking of a way that would make snow depth build up without being a zillion volumetric particles actually landing on stuff or the snow shader actually displacing the objects it lands on. both of which are very unlikely. I am quite interested to see what the fuss over the snow is about. So far, snow in both the trailer and screenshots look like a shader effect to me.

I'm buying into it is a shader texture effect that appears to build up as it is linked to the weather snow system, so the longer and heavier the snow, more the shader blends in the snow texture, and so there is an impression of surface coverage. But depth... maybe :shrug:. how they are going to do it? no idea

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:19 pm

First of all, I realize the majority here doesn't want to hear any criticizm, especially about the graphics.
And that's fine, you don't have to bother yourself with such topics. By now we are all familiar with your reasoning ("Gameplay is more important", "You are wrong, it looks incredible", etc), but I don't feel it will contribute anything.
Most of 'us' don''t criticize for the sake of flaming or hating, but to give constructive feedback, without which The Elder Scrolls wouldn't be where it is today.

Now, on topic.
The first descriptions of "dynamic snow that falls realistically" raised high hopes, and although I didn't actually expect real particle physics, I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed about the snow we saw in the trailer.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1305/ss20110226104739.png:

The rock on the right looks really, really nice. The deeper parts are filled realistically, and the rock itself blends perfectly with the surrounding 'flat' ground.
However, the other rocks don't fit. Their snow is darker, and they don't blend into the ground at all.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/192/ss20110226104818.png:

The rock Dovahkiin is standing on is covered in snow on all sides. Furthermore, the snow-covered parts stay at the same height as the underlying rock, which indicates a simple re-texturing. This makes it look like a white rock instead of a snow-covered rock.
Again, the boulder on the right looks much better, but the snow on top doesn't seem to accumulate either, it's 'just' a new texture.
In case this is supposed to be part of a glacier: I'm sorry, it looks great.

Some examples of real snow-covered rocks:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TCNoY2oICdw/TS76oi6vqjI/AAAAAAAAG7o/zSCsMlVcvag/s1600/angry+snow+rock+01.13.11.jpg: The more snow accumulates, the less it imitates the surface of the rock.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nXp7fPRIhO8/S9q0P7Wre2I/AAAAAAAAARw/OnnB3j9YOJE/s1600/snow_rock.jpg: A similar example; the snow only covers the top and generates a new, smooth surface.
http://www.cepolina.com/photo/Europe/Italy/Piedmont/Limone/2/Limone_snow_rock_soft.jpg: This is a good example of a rock with less snow, and how it blends into the surrounding area.

Overall, one of the main problems seems to be that the snow doesn't create a new mesh, thus just "recoloring" the rock (which I think could be darker in the first place to create a better contrast between the rock and the snow). This is the part I don't think they will be able to change. Sadly, this means there most likely won't be snow-covered trees either - the ones we saw looked more like frozen over.
But: They already have the means to place the snow where it would fall naturally, e.g. not at the sides of the rock. Also, I'm sure they could equalize the brightness of the snow, so it doesn't appear darker on certain rocks and blends better into the environment.
However, all this nitpicking is just about closeup snow. From afar, the http://cms.elderscrolls.com/sites/default/files/tes/screenshots/CompositeMountain_wLegal.jpg.

What do you think about the snow in Skyrim?

I think tht what they call dinamic snow is something like Crysis has , so a shader that covers in white texture all z up facing faces of a model , this way the roc can sllowly get top textured in whiteish style snow or froze .... Altough this doesn't really feel like Bumpy snow covers... I also suspect that just some places will have this dynamical thing while most of the other places will just feature one single season so snow covered or no snow covered ....

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:01 pm

just another troll thread

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:22 am

I wouldn't read too much into the snow effect. I'm sure it'll be cool, but nothing to write home about. It's just a graphical effect. Worry about gameplay!

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:32 pm

well real accumulation would involve things I don't think they would be doing. But you are probably right in thinking it is a shader effect, at least in part. I have trouble thinking of a way that would make snow depth build up without being a zillion volumetric particles actually landing on stuff or the snow shader actually displacing the objects it lands on. both of which are very unlikely. I am quite interested to see what the fuss over the snow is about. So far, snow in both the trailer and screenshots look like a shader effect to me.

I'm buying into it is a shader texture effect that appears to build up as it is linked to the weather snow system, so the longer and heavier the snow, more the shader blends in the snow texture, and so there is an impression of surface coverage. But depth... maybe :shrug:. how they are going to do it? no idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MvrI7u9ZI

That's one way to create the illusion of snow accumulation.
Much much much better (but still not perfect) than always walking on top of a snow-looking-surface.
Uncharted 2 had... one snow level or something? And they still did this. One would expect much more from a game like Skyrim that is very "snow-based".

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:18 pm

I'll need to wait to see it in more than just a few out-of-context clips for the trailer. I'm hoping they do a series on Bethesda blog detailing stuff like this, and other tech improvements.

Personally, I'm mostly taken aback by the shadowing, how they actually got that running on the 360 (Trailer is captured on the Xbox360 if you didn't know) is beyond me.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:26 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MvrI7u9ZI

That's one way to create the illusion of snow accumulation.
Much much much better (but still not perfect) than always walking on top of a snow-looking-surface.
Uncharted 2 had... one snow level or something? And they still did this. One would expect much more from a game like Skyrim that is very "snow-based".

Agreed - that looks bloody brilliant.

I wonder if the effect was a resource hog perhaps?

Maybe its difficult to achieve something like that on as large a scale as Skyrim. Maybe I'm just making excuses....

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:17 pm

Agreed - that looks bloody brilliant.

I wonder if the effect was a resource hog perhaps?

Maybe its difficult to achieve something like that on as large a scale as Skyrim. Maybe I'm just making excuses....

I have no idea. It's not real accumulation in that video. Just some kind of illusion with the mesh. Not sure exactly how, I'm not a dev...
It's definitely not perfect in the video. But it's a good start I'd say

I'll need to wait to see it in more than just a few out-of-context clips for the trailer. I'm hoping they do a series on Bethesda blog detailing stuff like this, and other tech improvements.

Personally, I'm mostly taken aback by the shadowing, how they actually got that running on the 360 (Trailer is captured on the Xbox360 if you didn't know) is beyond me.

Just wanna underline something. Having shadows on consoles is no miracle. Many many games have had dynamic shadows for years. Both on consoles and not on consoles.
What is beyond me is why Bethesda is so late with having it. Fallout 3 should have had it. Fallout NV should 1000% definitely had have it. During Oblivion's time it was still pretty new tech though, and difficult for performance.

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:07 am

http://cdn.zenimax.com/akqacms/files/tes/screenshots/CompositeMountain_wLegal.jpg

I bet this is a view from outside of the map inward at the back sides of the barrier mountains. Or a view of The Throat Of The World based on the look of the peak which looks like the very tall mountain in the trailer I assume to be The Throat Of The World.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:23 pm

Why was it when Dhovakin was running, he wasn't leaving footprints in the snow like in Uncharted 2?

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:35 am

Why was it when Dhovakin was running, he wasn't leaving footprints in the snow like in Uncharted 2?

Maybe he was leaving footprints, we just couldn't see them because there was these "snow-running-clouds" from when he ran? That's the only explanation I can see. Leaving footprints in snow isn't something very hard to do it seems.
It would be perfect in Skyrim. Especially for hunting and tracking.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:53 am

I believe the trailer contains evidence of the snow having volume in the part of the sequence the OP was talking about. I've just re-watched around 50-53 seconds in, first at quarter speed, then at eighth speed. As the hero goes into his 'ready' stance on the edge of the cliff watch his right foot. it starts in full view; as he moves it back slightly it seems to sink into deeper snow, the result being that his right foot is half buried. It could be a clipping issue maybe. I'm no expert,

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:13 am

In order to see how dynamic the snow actualy is we would have to see a side by side of different levels of snow buildup... And we dont know if all the levels of snowyness are actualy coded yet or if they look like they want em too and thgus would be something they would want to show yet.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:00 pm

First of all, I realize the majority here doesn't want to hear any criticizm, especially about the graphics.
And that's fine, you don't have to bother yourself with such topics. By now we are all familiar with your reasoning ("Gameplay is more important", "You are wrong, it looks incredible", etc), but I don't feel it will contribute anything.
Most of 'us' don''t criticize for the sake of flaming or hating, but to give constructive feedback, without which The Elder Scrolls wouldn't be where it is today.

Now, on topic.
The first descriptions of "dynamic snow that falls realistically" raised high hopes, and although I didn't actually expect real particle physics, I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed about the snow we saw in the trailer.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1305/ss20110226104739.png:

The rock on the right looks really, really nice. The deeper parts are filled realistically, and the rock itself blends perfectly with the surrounding 'flat' ground.
However, the other rocks don't fit. Their snow is darker, and they don't blend into the ground at all.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/192/ss20110226104818.png:

The rock Dovahkiin is standing on is covered in snow on all sides. Furthermore, the snow-covered parts stay at the same height as the underlying rock, which indicates a simple re-texturing. This makes it look like a white rock instead of a snow-covered rock.
Again, the boulder on the right looks much better, but the snow on top doesn't seem to accumulate either, it's 'just' a new texture.
In case this is supposed to be part of a glacier: I'm sorry, it looks great.

Some examples of real snow-covered rocks:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TCNoY2oICdw/TS76oi6vqjI/AAAAAAAAG7o/zSCsMlVcvag/s1600/angry+snow+rock+01.13.11.jpg: The more snow accumulates, the less it imitates the surface of the rock.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nXp7fPRIhO8/S9q0P7Wre2I/AAAAAAAAARw/OnnB3j9YOJE/s1600/snow_rock.jpg: A similar example; the snow only covers the top and generates a new, smooth surface.
http://www.cepolina.com/photo/Europe/Italy/Piedmont/Limone/2/Limone_snow_rock_soft.jpg: This is a good example of a rock with less snow, and how it blends into the surrounding area.

Overall, one of the main problems seems to be that the snow doesn't create a new mesh, thus just "recoloring" the rock (which I think could be darker in the first place to create a better contrast between the rock and the snow). This is the part I don't think they will be able to change. Sadly, this means there most likely won't be snow-covered trees either - the ones we saw looked more like frozen over.
But: They already have the means to place the snow where it would fall naturally, e.g. not at the sides of the rock. Also, I'm sure they could equalize the brightness of the snow, so it doesn't appear darker on certain rocks and blends better into the environment.
However, all this nitpicking is just about closeup snow. From afar, the http://cms.elderscrolls.com/sites/default/files/tes/screenshots/CompositeMountain_wLegal.jpg.

What do you think about the snow in Skyrim?

I took a look at the video again and if you notice most the dynamic snow effects take place on the ground as for the big rock.. well the surrounding rocks have more of a natural falling snow effect like the tops of rocks covered but the sides are spotty depending on it's postion that is easier to see from a distance, but if you look close on the big white rock you can see different levels of snow on the surface, im sure it could be more dynamic than it is but it does its job pretty well for such a hardware wise demanding game, and don't forget the game is still in developement