Given the Lore Fourm might as well be the intellectuals spoiler fourms I shouldn't have to put spoiler tags in the title, but just in case someone hasn't gotten this far, this thread/post will contain some spoilers in some way, shape or form.


Now, having completed the Foresworn Conspiracy quest in Markath, my character has come to an political, psycological, relgious and moral impass. Thus far, he's been sitting on the fence as far as the civil war goes. He was arrested and planned to be executed by the Empire, was aided by a Stormcloak rebel whom helped guide him to safty yet he ended up escaping with and Imperial Legionarie who sheltered him and helped give him a new life, so as he delves into a new world he knows he will eventually be forced to chose a side and fight for his new home.

In his travels he's found his new home to be one of gray maybes, no greater one than when he decided to settle down in the closest city to his homeland of Hammerfell, Markath Side. Here he is thrown into a violent whirlwind of Imperial corruption, Nordic Ocupation, Thalmor puppet masters and a violent and morally abigueous resistance movement amoungst the native Bretons against their nord masters, who in turn are torn between fighting their own war of independence or staying with the status quo and the Empire. Personally, he's becomeing to loath the Empire and their Thalmor overloards (having escaped the war in Hammerfell as young man only to be caught back in it in Cyrodiil and eventually in Skyrim where he too had become target of Thalmor plots due to his reverence (not outright worship) of Talos) and is gaining a more and more symapthy for the Stormcloaks and their rebellion. In Markath however, things are becoming more and more muddled. After becomeing Thane of the Reach and taking a personal interest in the Hold he took up interest in the Foresworn and their fight against their Nordic overloards. Indeed, even the Jarl himself and his attitude towards the 'common rabble' is disturbing as was the Jarl's elven 'retainers' and his dealings during the 'Markath Incident'.

Having been contracted by a concerned citizen about the murders the young Kurush Killcoyne began digging deeper into Markath bloodied history only to find the Silver-blood family (stormcloak supporters) in a political struggle with the Jarl over influence over the city and eventually uncovers the Silver-blood Familys dealing Madanach, the King in Rags and 'rightful' ruler of the Reach, or so Madanach and his Foresworn would have you believe. Kurush's meddeling ends him in Prison for a time where he meets the Foresworn leader and learns much about their struggle, and the heartbreak and hardship many of local Breton's have come to know while having the 'boot of the nords upon their throat'. He comes to sympathise with them, having found interest in a Breton girl himself, yet Madanach and his means doesn't sit well with Kurush. Madanach proves to be a cold, calculating and dedicated man who will do anything he has to in order to carve a bloody kingdom out of the Reach for his people, but at the cost of many lives and the innocent.

While a great deal of the Nordic people can be the cruel oppressors Madanach claims to fight, it is not true of them all, and Madanach's reign of terror upon the Reach not only targets Nord's but anyone who steps outside the city gates, which even then arn't completely safe. Madanach manages to manipulate Kurush into aiding them in their escape and is forced to kill another prisoner on inside to prove his loyalty and finds more sympathy with many of the wronged prisoners who were driven to the Foresworn rather than Madanach himself. Not long Madanach leads and escape through the ruins of Markath's dwenemr ruins where he plans to see the sun once again. At this point, Kurush can't help but feel a sort or kinship with the Foresworn who fight for their freedom as they escape, but just before they make the final break Madanach relays something that influences his mind. Madanach tells him 'no one in The Reach will be safe now' and it regesters that by aiding Madanach and his kin, many many more will die in a blood feud that has lasted eras. During the valliant escape many Nords fall, including the tree of corruption that is Thronor Silver-Blood who falls at Madanach's hand, and at the apex of the battle Kurush slays Madanach, a blade through his back in a slit decision of guilt. (which is ironic in the fact Madanach has him kill another prisoner to assure him that he wont be 'syched in the back' during the escape) Madanach's reign ends before it can truely begin and he never see's the sky or freedom, though his men escape into the hills, he appears to be slane by one of his own men who disapears into the city. In the end, the conspiricy comes full circle, and both Madanach and Thornor meet an end, yet Kurush still feels some respect for Madanach. Enough that he hides his body during the final moments of the battle so that he may not fall into the hands of the nords for displaying.

My character at this point is beyond conflicted, so where do you stand? To me (and my Character) Madanach's cause is noble, but his means atroshish and unjustifiable. Yet the nords are just as to blame for a great many atocities that befell the Reach . Do the Foresworn have the right to rule? Was Madanach's approach justified or do the Nord's have the right to rule?

Well, too bad for him, then. My love for the Forsworn stems from two things:

1) Their just interesting compared to the rest of Skyrim. Nords mummify and honor their dead, Reachmen turn their dead into war machines with open chest cavities and prickly plant hearts. Hagravens are also awesome. After helping Melka and obtaining her staff she told me to "Kill something pretty with it.", Yes ma'am!

2) Their cause. They follow the "Reach heaven through violence." philosophy to the letter. They are carving their ideal world out of the blood of anybody who comes across their path.

If we want to discuss actual morals, I'd say they are more entitled to The Reach than those damned Silver-Bloods. Plus, who's to say the Silver-Bloods didn't use similar means to get in the position they're at right now?

Not as much looking for a moral justification, but I havn't seen much discussion the situation and thought it would be best to introduce it through the eyes of someone, a forigner no less, who is experienceing it first hand. From what I understand, Madanach has no claim to Markath's throne other than he's an usupur, one who is recognized by his people yet he holds no 'right' to it. The Silver-Blood's I hated, well, Thornor I did, his brother wasn't near as bad from what I've seen thus far. To me, and Kurush, neither were fit and their deaths were well met. Thronor was slain by those he sought to use and in turn, Madanach met the same fate.

Edit: However, The Reach is still a bloody mess and the Foresworn, while I can sympathise with their cause (how can I not, leaning towards an independent Noridc State?) they kill and slaughter any and all. Just traveling along the road I saved a fellow Ra'ga who was but a mere merchant from a Foresworn attack. She wasn't a nord, a noble, just a traveler and Madanach would have just furthered the tide of blood.

We don't get much discussion about it because pretty much everybody regards them as bloody savages that need to be exterminated. See, that hostility to everybody is what I admire about them. They are so imbued in their own cause that they don't even distinguish between Nords and everybody else. Plus its a terror strategy; every drop of blood that is shed counts. If the Stormcloaks were placed in the same desperate situation as the Reachmen, would they not do the same? After eras of being pushed out of their lands, reclaiming their lands, being pushed out of their lands, this is what they have resorted to. All or nothing. Everybody dies so they can live the way they want to, because if they truly want their way of life back, they have to instill permanent fear in the hearts of Skyrim's people. In the hearts of Tamriel's people. They want The Reach's Nords to experience what the Reachmen have been for the past 4 eras.

Now we all know that fear doesn't mean you'll be left to your own devices. Everyone feared the sload, so what did they do? sunk their island with the All Flag's Navy so that the sload wouldn't bother them again. In the case of the Reachmen, I'd have to disagree that lashing out at everyone is going to earn them their Kingdom back. Eventually, people are going to get tired of them, and it'll end in a purging. Eye for an Eye leaves everyone blind and what not. I don't hate the Reachmen myself, I hated Thornor Silver-Blood more than I hated Madanach, but Madanach was just as bad as the Silver-Bloods, except he'd just get rid of you when you outlived your usefulness.

You can't intimidate or bully a Dragon (Whether that Dragon be the Akatosh of the Empire, Auriel of the Aldmeri Dominion, or Shor of the Nords) - The end result of their attempt to scare everyone into submission is the utter annihilation of their people.

If they piss off the Yokudans, the Reach may end up being The Wasteland.

I hate to draw parallels between lore and real-world issues, but they way I see it, the Forsworn/Markarth nobility struggle is basically just third-world terrorist groups versus corrupt first-world governments. Personally, I prefer to eradicate the terrorist group and depose the corrupt government, which is ultimately what my character did.

Madanach, like Ulfric, is an idealist who only sees things one way and is blinded by his victim complex and just seeks to take revenge against the people he perceives have harmed him (for Ulfric, every non-Stormcloak; for Madanach, every non-Forsworn).

Yeah... I lost all sympathy for Madanach's cause from the very beginning - What did the Forsworn have to gain from killing a woman shopping for jewerly?

I don't think Madanach cared or knows who's he killing while he was incarcerated in Markarth; He's just passing along people whom the SIlverbloods want to kill.

That was the whole thing that starts the quest after all.

The woman was suppose to be an agent sent by the imperials to investigate the Silverbloods; so it was natural that the Silverbloods used the Forsworn to kill her.

Madanach is really like an less "affluent" version of Ulfric.

The Forsworn are all barbarians. The mere fact that they are still alive baffles me.

My solution? Kill Madanach, then kill Thonar after he pardons you. Thonar no doubt deserves it, while Madanach, while a bit more sympathetic, is a dangerous rebel whose freedom would probably cause the people a lot of grief.

Of course, the stupid quest has a nasty glitch, the only solution I know of being giving the city to Ulfric, either by conquest or by negotiation, thus putting Thonar's brother in charge of the city.

Nonetheless it's an interesting dynamic in Markarth.

I don't recall a glitch. All I got after killing Thonar was inheritence money.

The glitch is when you to the Shrine of Talos. Those guards slap another bounty on you and try to arrest you again. And they respawn and return to their post in the shrine.

The way I look at it is, unless the Dwemer flattened a Foresworn or Nord settlement when they built Markarth, then neither the Foresworn or the Nords have any real Historical claim to the reach. They just moved in when the Dwarves went poof.

Well it's not like the Dwemer are coming back, so there stuff is up for grabs.

They most likely did - Or they just built their fortress in the middle of the Reach despite the natives - They were prone to pulling stuff like that, seeing as building fortresses is something they share with Dwarves of other fantasy worlds (Even if they are actually a type of elf in this one). In fact, it was probably started with just seven of the buggers.

I don't think that their morally justified at all. They just interest me greatly, and I wish to aid them because of this. Plus, they wear deer on their head.

EDIT: I do want to say that The Reach and it's Men were about to be officially recognized by The Empire before Ulfric attacked.

If you believe the author of "The Bear of Markarth." You ask me, it was way too extremely rife with Imperial propoganda to be used as a credible source.

And historically, the people of the Reach, specificially the now Foresworn, have been nothing but a giant pain on everyone's ass, going as far back as them being there. I dunno, but there's something in the water of the Reach that causes bretons to go [censored] insane.

They've been a pain in everyone's ass since Cuhlecain.

In one of the endings of Skyrim, you hand over control of the Numidium to the Reachmen and they gain their own autonomous state, and its population becomes a playable race in the next game.

Reachmen are bretons, for all intents and purposes. Been that way since lore started getting on track.

I guess that makes them the Bretons' Ashlanders? I wouldn't mind having them as a playable race. Or the Ashlanders for that matter, assuming they aren't all one with the land via ash.

Sure...But saying you want Reachmen to be a playable race IS like saying you want Ashlanders to be a playable race. It's utter nonsense, as both are bretons and dunmer, respectively.

Though, the problem is, is that the PC will never have had grow up a Foreswon.

Hence 'become.' Or perhaps I should have said 'would be'?

Though I do like the idea of having additional background options, similar to character creation in Daggerfall.