No I wasn't. Anyway, TES civilizations really are not technologically proficient enough to render ice-ports open to practical use anyway. Subs don't exist either.

And, Russia itself didn't have a large variety of warm water ports. It was simply all the Baltic countries that the Soviets had nabbed into their Commie Bloc that harbored nice ports for use to the Soviet navies.

Ocato may have some power, but only on paper. The real power lies with the Legion commanders. Those are the ones that will compete, and fight, for the throne of the Empire. Like in so many other empires when they were without a direct heir.

In fact, most of their major shipyards and naval ports have been, and still are, along the murmansk rims along the Baring Sea in northern Russia proper. Alot of this has to do with the naturally good whale fishing that used to be a necessity to support sailing communities that thrives because of the cold water conditions giving way to exceptional phytoplankton growth.

Not trying to be contrary here, just 'sayin. I was a navy guy in the 80s and payed off my law school debts at the puget sound shipyards later on, so I get nerdy about this stuff.

Well the stonger Altmeri navy, will dominate anyone in the sea. You just wait.

I know now not to argue with you anymore, then.

What my original points were, that island nations where warm-water, year long open ports are used extensively, like Britain in RL, and Sumurset in TES are proficiently able to create and maintain large and strong navies, moreso than land-locked, or semi land-locked nations.

I thought the reason most major russian shipyards (i think this is what you are talking about) are up north is because they don't own the dardenelles and so their navy had to be somewhere where it couldn't be pinned down by turkish hostility. and their eastern coast is too far away from the major industrial parts of russia.

Two additional strong reasons. The idea of a strongly Bering sea based system of naval structure had and continues to have great advantages, although they have been maintaining alot of shipyards in the Baltic as well - formerly Prussian Kaliningrad a prime example. As far as I know, they certainly didn't have many serious shipYARDs on the eastern coast, but they had and still maintain a few large sub pens, the second largest Pacific Fleet base at Vilyuchinsk, and a few ICBM loading facilities on the east coast - largely in the Kamchatka-area inlets.

Barrister, pre-industrialization you need a strong maritime tradition and economy to be a naval power. Nowadays, anyone with enough factories can rule the waves.

Look at the Romans, their navy blew chunks.

I guess a key factor here is also the fact that as long as you can keep whatever coracle-like lousy excuse for a boat you have in the TES universe afloat long enough for your sorcerer buddy to be able to cast a fireball, you've got a pretty viable navy.

Romans got lucky. I remember reading somewhere about the romans copying the superior design of the Carthaginian ships to win the first punic war.
I think you still need a naval tradition as well, if you have nobody with any naval experience you won't be able to bring your forces to bear. A good example of this is WW1, because nobody had any experience at trech warfare it was a shambles and there were many uneccessary blunders. Very good example was the Germans didn't predict the effects of their gas attacks so they weren't ready when their first ever attack was such a massive success and so they didn't capitalise on the huge hole in the British lines

sorry to stick to the real life stuff but i honestly don't know enough TES lore to contribute meningfully to that part of the debate.

If that were true, there wouldn't be any vessels except rafts.

I think that people who say that don't really understand seapower. It's war, not a magical pissing contest. And it's usually not war, and that's important too. Sea power is deterrent and revolves around the protection of trade, not fireballz pwnt ur boats +5 lol.

Very true.

"In case you don't be knowin', cargo vessels without escort is a pirate's best friend."
- The educated Cap'n Dugal, 3E 286

A merchant vessel out of sight of land is a pirate, in many cases.

Ocato is setting himself up? In what way? He's just had the Empire thrown in his lap after the last heir died, I really doubt he expected Martin to die and our knowledge of Ocato's actions end just after Martin's death and his accepting being the steward of the Empire so we can't say he's setting himself up for anything. Apart from taking on the natural role of steward of the Empire due to his place as head of the Elder Council, how is he "setting himself up for the long haul"? Do know about some consolidation of power or mobilizing of the legions that I don't...
Now, apart from random assertions, what do we actually know. Well, for starters we know what Ocato tells us:

-"Don't worry. The Elder Council can govern the Empire perfectly well until a new heir can be found."
-"We are now the stewards of the Empire. We can hold the Empire together in the short term."--Ocato

Now, as for my evidence for there being no heirs before:

"-Pelagius had no living children, so the Crown Imperial passed to his first cousin
-Kintyra's murder in Glenpoint while in captivity is considered by some to be the end of the pure strain of Septim blood in the imperial family... Uriel III not only proclaimed himself Emperor of Tamriel, but also Uriel Septim III, taking the eminent surname as a title. In truth, his surname was Mantiarco from his father's line. In time, Uriel III was deposed and his crimes reviled, but the tradition of taking the name Septim as a title for the Emperor of Tamriel did not die with him.
-The Empress Regent of Tamriel was proclaimed Empress Katariah I upon the death of her husband. Some who do not mark the end of the Septim bloodline with the death of Kintyra II consider the ascendancy of this Dark Elf woman the true mark of its decline.
-left the kingdom of Wayrest to reign as Uriel IV. Legally, Uriel IV was a Septim: Cassynder had adopted him into the royal family when he had become King of Wayrest. Nevertheless, to the Council and the people of Tamriel, he was a bastard child of Katariah... It will be recalled that Uriel IV was not a Septim by birth. His mother, though she reigned as Empress for many years, was a Dark Elf married to a true Septim Emperor, Pelagius III. Uriel's father was actually Katariah I's consort after Pelagius' death, a Breton nobleman named Gallivere Lariat.
-Before taking the throne of Empire, Cassynder I had ruled the kingdom of Wayrest, but poor health had forced him to retire. Cassynder had no children, so he legally adopted his half-brother Uriel and abdicated the kingdom."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/brief_history_of_empire.shtml

Its up to the Elder Council at this point to find somebody they find worthy of being Emperor and to name them as such, but I frankly can't see the Council or the citizens of the Empire standing for Ocato naming himself Emperor (something he probably can't do without the support of the rest of the Council anyway, and just because he's Chancellor doesn't mean he automatically has their support). As for who they'll make Emperor, since Oblivion ends so abruptly after Martin's death and Ocato taking stewardship, nobody can say, but the hereditary Empire of the Septims died a dang long time ago...

Also, my comments center on Ocato not becoming Emperor; Denethor was the de facto ruler of Gondor, but he was not its king, just a steward. Just the same, Ocato may be the de facto ruler of Tamriel, but that doesn't make him its Emperor; just as he says, he's just the steward until a new Emperor can be found.

And they have trained goblin slaves to keep as "competent" sailors :thumbsup:



Also, didn't people often try to capture the other guy's vessel(s)? Building ships is expensive.

People forget that the technology to reliably sink large vessels didn't exist for most of history. You've got Greek tiremes and then not much else until shell-firing guns. So capturing yes, by default.

Iceland has never had an army of any sorts but did win a war(s) against the British Empire using only fishing boats (not really a proper war, more of a series of confrontation and skirmishes...but still)
No ports freeze over due to the Gulf Stream making the country a lot hotter then it should be.

And Russians have a huge navy. It did shrink a little after the collapse but it has long since reclaimed its mightiness.

OK you've talked long enough about navy, please continue this in another thread.

I've been doing some thinking, and MAY have thought a way for there to be a new Emperor. (Sort of)

You know how Martin had been a member of a Daedric cult in the past? And how he seemed to reconize the Sanguine Rose? So there MAY be a good chance that the Cult he was in was a cult of Sanguine.
And what is Sanguine's sphere? 'Hedonistic revelry and debauchery, and passionate indulgences of darker natures.' (Source: UESP) So there MAY have been a chance that Martin got *Ahem* busy with someone, and thus, MAY have had a heir.
So the next in line (Or the closest they have to a relative) to the Throne MAY in fact be a illegitimate's illegitimate.

That suggestion has popped up before and it's a possibility, though without the Amulet of Kings it can no longer be proven.

Yet it gets applied after every game. Which factions did the player join? Which quests did he complete? Who did he kill? Of course the Jills fix the Break caused by the presence of multiple gods after each game and then it gets sorted out as if it never happened, leaving only contradicting stories behind.

That's one part of it anyway, but it seamlessly fits to everything else.