So im sure everyone saw the quakecon liveblog thread where a discussion has started up on the feral ghouls being fast again. The discussion got cut short, so rather than continuing it in PMs with @DemonsBlade im going to open up a thread on it.

So yes, the Feral Ghouls, they be fast! Is this breaking lore where they were slow in the original games? Does it make for good gameplay to have them fast as opposed to slow? Personally I think its a compromise between gameplay and lore. Fast zombies have never made that much sense in any form of fiction they turn up in, its just a way to make the conflict more exciting, especailly in a story that revolves entirely around them. The story doesnt revolve around the zombies in Fallout, they've got their own distinct flavour too, but its still a fun encounter to have. But thats my opinion, what do you guys think?

Ghoul lore has always been [censored], going even as far back as the original Fallout devs being unable to decide if they were radiation only, or FEV and radiation.

Its hard to break lore not even the original devs agreed one, and Obsidian's use of fast ghouls in NV shows they ar ok with it, so I see no reason to complain.

Ive always had a problem with fast ghouls/zombies in general, due to lack of muscle.
But I can put that on the back burner for formidable opponents.

They were fast in FO3 and FO:NV soooooo...

Another reason for fast zombies (ghouls, whatever) in games is it's much easier to have 10 fast moving enemies than 1,000 shamblers. And that's especially useful when they aren't your only enemy, so you need lots of ammo available to cope with big tough monsters and gun toting human enemies.

If ghouls were true to the lore then they'd literally be crawling on the floor growling at people and lightly touching them with their scrawny, melted forearms.

I'm fine with fast ghouls honestly.

Yeah... slow ghouls... I can see it now...

You have been ambushed by a pack of feral ghouls!

10 seconds pass, the ghouls are a little closer!

12 seconds pass, the ghouls are slightly closer...

The SS: ... ...

15 seconds pass, the ghouls are a few meters away from you...

The SS has casually walked away from the attacking ghouls!

Ghouls die in humiliation...

I don't really mind all that much, if it's the same speed as ferals we had in past games then it's fine with me.

If ghouls were true to the lore they'd be shuffling around slowly and punching you.

Ghouls moved pretty fast in 3 and NV and it worked for me, especially in Fallout 3's Metro areas

I didn't hear anyone complain about it in 3/NV. I was looking at the wikia page on feral ghouls and didn't find any mention of them being fast or slow.

Dunno why a thread needed to be made centered around a PM when you, yourself said it wasn't going anywhere

1. Obviously it's breaking lore, especially when even in Bethesda's games they were rotting corpses (despite running).

2. As I pointed in PM, but you refused to accept because you think it's too much work for them (paraphrased), they could have simply made an entirely new enemy. They had to completely create their models and animations from scratch anyways. Not to mention they never explained them or anything in Fallout 3.

As I've already said, the entire argument about slow vs fast doesn't even need to exist because they could simply create a new enemy. Unless Bethesda can't do what Obsidian did despite Obsidian having less time, resources and staff?

3. *Sigh* Again I'll point out that ghouls are not zombies. They weren't zombies in Fallout 1, 2, Tactics, 3 or New Vegas, so I have no idea where you keep getting it from.

True. The leads couldn't agree on it back then, but you have to admit that they have been represented as rotting corpses and that it's nonsensical for them to as fast and nimble as any healthy human and somehow develop glowing eyes.

Aren't you the one that always says that Obsidian shouldn't be defended about lack of time because they had the resources from Bethesda to recycle?

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So my point again as was already pointed out in PM: Bethesda could have just made a new enemy that moved quickly and filled the role of these new ghouls without misrepresenting them in gameplay

Yeah I wouldn't be too scared of something with so little muscle mass that it can't lightly jog "punching" me.

There's a lot of nonsensical things about enemy, weapon, and armor designs in Fallout, simply due to its 50 retro-future basis. That's no more an argument then pointing out how its illogical that fantasy universes never developed guns, even after thousands of years.

Yes, and? This isn't a defense of anything, its just pointing out that they clearly thought it was ok to have ghouls be able to run.

The contention is that I don't think this is breaking lore in such a major way. I make the comparison to zombies since the Feral Ghouls are essentially a Falloutverse version of fast zombies in the universe and in the gameplay. Sure, it may not make sense for a rotting corpse to be running full tilt, but that is just a break from the real world that you have to make with fantastical creatures. In the PM you said how they should just make a different monster for this, while providing no other details for what this monster should be, how it should fit into the lore, and if its worthwhile to make this specific new monster with the ghouls already present. Its essentially saying "Make it better", with no plan on how they should other than that the end result should be pleasing to your tastes.

I made this into a thread since I could already tell this subject was going to be deadlocked in PM conversations. Personally I dont like discussing things in PMs at all, I think this is the first time ive recieved a PM like that in the 3 or so years ive been here. I just prefer discussing things on the open forum where its a lot less personal and many other people can add to the conversation.

Lore-wise they're not zombies. Gameplay-wise of course they're freaking zombies, fast moving scary zombies at that.

I love the idea that they can come through the windows out of nowhere.

But of course, I bet this actually happens like twice in the game. Bethesda have a knack for showing us a scripted event that you assume will occur often, but only actually occurs once or twice. Much like the Super Duper Mart in Fallout 3, one of the very few instances where a scripted event occurred within an interior/dungeon.

Well I figure feral ghouls are to the point of feeling little to no pain, so they just push there bodies past what they should be capable of. Ghouls are also healed by radiation, so this could possible compensate for the damage thy cause to themselves from running. I would guess ghouls outside of radiation would degrade much faster.

it would be cool if they had a mix of fast and slow also where able to plan ambushes

When Stormfront released Pool of Radiance II, they had zombies in it that looked pretty good; and behaved as one would expect. They practically got lynched for it. In their patch, all the zombies became world class sprinters.

They were all insanely fast in FO3, and NV (?)

In Fallout they ambled around nicely, and as expected; stiff, tired, awkward, powerful.

I think from the announcement trailer and the pack of fast Ferals, which is very rare in FO3/NV (the large pack, not fast Ghouls), all it really proves is that stealthily removing 2 or 3 from a pack in anticipation of a fight will prove a more productive and efficient means of dealing with them rather than guns a-blazin'.

As a strong advocate of stealth, I welcome the opportunity to hopefully get "A Light Shining in Darkness", attach a Silencer to it and headshot these guys. Sadly, no Silencer for it in New Vegas and I doubt it'll make a return in FO4, as awesome as that gun was.

Meh, fast Zombies. I just love enemy variety. Give me plenty to kill and plenty of ways to respawn them and do it all over again. Dinner Bell has some tasty buckshot for these guys. Have some delicious violence and lashings of blood on the walls and furniture and I'm as happy as can be.

If they respawn, that will be mod #1 to find and install the fix for it.

Except they didn't act as expected, else people wouldn't have gotten mad at them in said game, thus forcing the devs to release a patch.

The concept of zombies has evolved over time, the Romero slow zombies are no longer what is expected. The 28 days later "infected" style zombie is what is expected nowadays.

And when it comes to the living dead, everything is bullt[censored] to begin with, you can't really argue "they should be slow" unless you also argue "they should be dead!" as well.

If they weren't fast, they'd have to be durable, which would make even less sense due to their bodies. This is a lesser evil choice.

If this were a show or a movie I would prefer that they move slowly because something about that slow robotic puppetmovement creeps me out.

In video games though I like the fast ones because they do make for a more threatening enemy. Since they aren't actually dead no less and don't have rigor mortis I'm completely willing to buy into the concept. Maybe older ones should move slower though?

I do believe that you would disagree with a neighbor's account of their own dream.