Yes, parts of your theory, and some subjects in the Fallout lore, are to me, not always necessarily confined to just "a game" but a lot of "wild ideas" have their origin in actual life, or atleast information that came from "real life".


The abyss was also a great movie, and the ocean is such a huge unexplored place, I know that the ones who have gone deepest and is most familiar with it, is not the biologists on discovery channel, but the military. Just as the space program happened to be all "military" and then gradually they've become known as something of the civilian society, and that the military doesnt even have a space program, despite that the tech we use we got from the military, all the first astronauts were military, and even today NRO and such give their old equipment to the public, and we list it as the "best", like those two telescopes NASA got back in 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_National_Reconnaissance_Office_space_telescope_donation_to_NASA , superior to the Hubble telescope, capable of 200 times (says only 100) the wider view, NASA is still trying to fund money from the public to put them to use.

If the military have telescopes "100 times better" than Hubble, which the mother of all telescopes, and they say that those telescopes are their old outdated ones, then only the mind of a chat-bot would not be able to figure out that they have a very advanced spaceprogram, and it is as classified and unknown as those telescopes were before the military decided to give them to "us".

Sorry for maybe going totally out of topic again, but I do find this thread extremely interesting, and it's 4 more months until Fallout 4 is out, so until I get some more F4 material to chew on, I will most likely let my thoughts wander off to the far of edges of related topics sometimes.

To me the whole MIT-society in the fallout universe is kind of the "classified" secret society of the military, that most people know about, but dont really think or atleast talk that much about.

Also, the player, or atleast while playing as a male, you appear to be "ex-military" of some sort, the wife says "You're gonna knock them dead at the veterans hall tonight", and there is a folded american flag in the living room.

I bet playing as the wife you might have a similair past or you've been involved in some sort of "science".

No problem, I'm glad you like the thread. There have certainly been some very good ideas and suggestions contributed here from several forum users.

Also, I do agree that both of our potential protagonists will have a background that will prove to be 'useful' to the plot. My own theory is that the husband is a former marine, but may have also served in the navy early in his career onboard a sub. The wife would have most likely studied law (as per the certificate next to the flag case), and perhaps joined the navy, but instead of working in legal services she ends up in logistics, which would give her access to a great deal of technical information. This could also explain how they met.

And speaking of the Institute and their suggested appearance as being a classified part of the military, you might want to check out http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1524886-the-institute thread...

Thanks, I'll read it through and probably leave some posts in the future, I think I'll have to read up on the fallout wiki meanwhile

I agree; and judging by the apparent size of that sub, it definitely looks like a launch platform for nuclear missiles. Maybe this also helps explain why there was such a short warning before Boston was hit.

I really hope we get the opportunity to explore underwater areas; it's something that's always been in previous Bethesda games, but never utilised to any great extent. One of my favourite moments in Oblivion was when I discovered the "Fin Gleam" helmet; anyone who has played that game will know what I mean!

The great thing about these games is that I did put in hundreds of hours, maybe even "thousands" into Oblivion, and I still dont know about it. Still stuff to discover/explore

The thing is we will probably never know what actually caused the first nuke to be launched, as its never been that important in the Fallout universe to the lore who started the war.....of course we have for the first time a pre-war survivor as the main character, so maybe they are going to set the cause in lore or maybe it will simply remain a vague unknown since the majority of survivors who are still around seem to be people who witnessed the destruction and aftermath, but had no real knowledge of the trigger event. We do not I think have any accounts from anyone in authority or command positions so far to give us that information.

Its important to remember that at the time of the Great War, the US and China were not in a cold war, where the destruction of a single Sub or the shooting down of a plane could escalate tensions and lead to war. The were in the middle of a long war in which the US was actively conquering Chinese territory which in and of itself could have led to the Chinese decision to launch a first strike.

Maybe the Chinese sub actually launched the nukes that hit Boston (only managing to launch 2-3 missiles), althrough that would probably depend on how close to Boston the chinese sub was located when it happened. Maybe the Sub was sunk attempting to make a convential attack on Boston Harbour, maybe the captain of the sub just went crazy and started the Great War on his own decision, maybe they were dropping of Chinese Infiltrators.

The destruction of a strategic asset could have been the spark that ignited the Great War, but the Resource Wars were in full spring and the first strike could have come from another source than the big three....also limited nuclear strikes had already happened and the US President and the Enclave were already expecting an attack from China when they withdrew to remote locations in March.

The incident with the sub could literally have been 'the straw that broke the camel's back', and could have triggered the use of nuclear weapons in light of ever increasing tension. So it is still entirely possible that this single incident could have inadvertently led to the onset of the Great War.

Also, if the sub had have launched the three nukes, then the one in the harbor would have landed first (or at least at roughly the same time as the one in Prospect Hill), and would therefore have been 1. far too close, resulting in literal suicide for anyone on the sub, and 2. in the wrong order compared to the other two. If another nuke had have gone off before the one in Lincoln, then everyone standing on top of the vault would have seen it first.

And as for payload, the strongest factor in this theory is that all nuclear materials were still inside the sub when it became lodged in the subterranean fissure, as they would be required as a 'fuel source' for the Glowing Sea anomaly. And this would include any missiles that happened to be on board.

I did find this while I was looking on the wiki and was reminded of the words used to describe the strke on Boston..http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ballistic_Orbital_Missile_Base_001(its from Van Buren) which could have been what Todd was talking about when he said the BOMB hit.......also it could be what we see in the E3 footage.

The Chinese sub may have been inserting covert operatives, which they apparently were able to do as seen in Fallout 3 in DC and we get a two for one deal with the nuking of US city and the destruction of a Chinese strategic asset...gentlemen we have a whole new ballgame.

Another possibility for the comparatively low amount of nukes maybe because the nuke is of a model with higher yield - if Russia, for example, would nuke a city with Tsar Bomba (the most powerful nuke in existence), it will only need one to flatten the whole city. This would explain why there's only a single, notable crater in Boston.

However, the most likely possibility remains with the defensive system destroying most missiles.

It is possible that the submarine would experience reactor meltdown/failure, and its radiation content is dispersed to the sea while the sub exploded/sunk.

Real life cases of a nuclear submarine radiation-related failure are the Soviet submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-19 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-431

Both of them, especially the K-431, experience damages which result in radiation leakage. However, the problem is, in the case of K-431, the decay rate of the fission reactor product means that the radiation level would dissipate quickly. However, it should be noted that the yield was not severe.

If a Chinese sub would actually experience severe criticality (uncontrolled chain reaction) in the reactor, and considering that nuclear reactor technology in Fallout is way more advanced than the real world (fission reactors are miniaturised to power radios), that would mean the yield would be greater, also considering the fact that the sub will also likely carry nuclear payloads.

This may be a possibility (and may purely be speculative):

The sub carries 4 nuclear warheads, and launched 3 nukes at the targets in Boston. However, due to uncontrolled reaction in the reactor or even the 4th payload itself, the submarine exploded, and expelled radiation to the water. This is further worsened by the fact that the submarine debris sunk, that the radiation permeated to the depths of the sea, not only limited to the littoral depth.

Or:

A nuclear missile was launched from a launch pad somewhere in China. The sub carries multiple payloads. However, it experiences failure in the ballast tank, and sunk to the depths. Somehow, the nuclear reactors also experience criticality, and then exploded, prompting the other payloads to detonate in a destructive chain reaction. The explosion, which happened in the sea bed, caused radioactive hydrothermal vents (basically an underwater nuclear fallout), causing the radiation to permeate further in the area affected.

Interesting, I guess going looking for that sunken sub will be my nr 1 priority now when playing Fallout 4, get that chinese intel/log and possibly finding out who or how the war started. Boy will I be disappointed if I hit a "invisible wall" or auto-die right after I get beyond knee-deep level water after leaving the shore

Additional info for the second possibility:

The missile launched from China is of a larger payload than the standard nukes launched by them, and it caused the huge crater found in the outskirts of Boston. However, as gkk7z has pointed out, much of its force may be absorbed by ground burst. This may explain the lack of other craters, as only the missile succeeded, while the sub failed to launch its payloads.

Actually the problem with these theories are that, at least from the E3 Footage the first nuclear strikes happen before we see Boston getting hit....i'd assume we would have seen some sign of an earlier strike on Boston, before the newsreader's announcement.

Good observation, I am not refusing to believe any other possible scenario, but however, the submarine incident can still be to blame for the nuclear war, if the "incident" got confused for a deliberate attack by either side, they can have launched retaliating attacks on eachother, those attacks have no reason to be limited to the boston area, it is the command of the warring factions that decide and take action, not the people in the submarine, they can have been cut off from communication altogether for all we know, maybe they launched the nukes on the submarine without orders later, or they were later ordered to fire their nukes (along with the rest of the forces), or maybe they actually never fired the nukes at all and it was incoming missiles from another location, it could even have been american nukes directed to destroy the nuke if they believed it was a bigger threat on a larger scale (as in having a "mega" weapon on board).

I know this is all speculation, but that's basically all we have it seems anyway

I just wouldn't tie the existence of the chinese sub and the start of the Great War to tightly together as they dont need to both be true, Fallout games have never even given us a hint as to the final straw that turned 30 odd years of conflict (including limited use of nukes) into an all out attempt to exterminate mankind from existence. A submarine incident could be the final straw, or something could have happened in the Sino-American war where large numbers of US troops were pushing steadily into mainland China, or the Enclave could have engineered the first strikes, or some other country could have launched a strike hoping the US and China destroyed each other, terrorists could have exploded a nuke in a Chinese city and placed the blame on the US, etc.

Yes, but like I said, I dont know much of the Fallout lore, all I know is that a submarine had a serious incident the same day the nukes started flying, it seems "likely" to me, because it's all I know about it, and since it is a fiction event, that the destruction of a enemy nuclear submarine in a major US city is gonna heat things up.

Just imagine if a russian submarine hit a mine right outside manhattan during the cold war (and possibly causing a nuclear meltdown), maybe not the top layer of the military intelligence, but pretty much everyone else would panic and mistake this radioactive accident as a direct attack, or a failed attack, it's a recipe for disaster.

The feces hits the fan, so to speak.

In a situation as "tense" as the one described, you don't really run a armed nuclear submarine right to close proximity of a major city without a strategic reason and mission, and I doubt the commanders of the US would be "neutral" to the situation and consider it a friendly/causua dropping by/visit, I'm not even sure that is the "neutral" view from any perspective in a situation like that.

But like I said, it might just be a coincident, but I havent heard anything as distinct and likely to cause it as that of yet.

Sorry if I am asking again, but was the presence and destruction of the chinese submarine in Boston "confirmed" from lore? If so where can I read more about it?

Edit: I now realised that the scenario with the chinese submarine hitting the mine on the 23rd was speculation/suggestion, and not lore based (or am I still confused).

It is still entertaining and somewhat convincing to give it a critical role, since the concept art of chinese nuclear submarines and mines do exist and they probably are meant to have been located in the waters close to Boston.

The submarine theory is all speculation (as are most Great War theories), as I've said there is literally no information about the Great War, beyond the two hour duration, the Resource Wars leading up to it and that the Enclave and the US President withdrew to safety in March, suggesting that either the Great War was an expected event (for the Enclave) or that the likelihood of a nuclear exchange was already established and growing more likely.

Since the US and China were already at war (and the US was actively invading China), any sighting of a Chinese submarine would lead to armed confrontation. As I mentioned earlier the submarine would explain how China was successfully inserting covert operatives onto the east coast of the US, which would give it a reason to be in Boston Harbour when the Great War started.

Thanks for the info

The Chinese did send submarines to the East Coast during the Great War - in Point Lookout (FO3 DLC), a quest involves a story about a Chinese agent who is tasked on destroying a sunken Chinese submarine that was sent on the recon in the waters of Point Lookout, Maryland.

However, we don't know yet that the Chinese really did sent nuclear-powered submarines...

Like Helljumper has said, it is all speculations... Just some mental exercise (and hype preserver) before the game is released!

I'm willing to bet that the sub moved closer to shore while during the two hour missile exchange.

Yes, it seems pointless to make concept about a submarine and mines et cetera unless they are indeed in the Boston area.

Maybe the small submarine seen in the concept art (99% sure its a submarine) is a vehicle for stealthy drop offs and pick ups of agents, it seems much more feasible that they'd use a smaller vehicle when dropping off agents closer to the shore in "shallow" water than using a huge nuke-launcher submarine.

The coolest thing would be if you can use the smaller submarine in game for getting to deeper waters for investing the "mothership", but I doubt it, but maybe if they have vertibird travel, they can have submarine travel.

I'd agree that the chosen concept art probably is stuff that made it into the game.

I came up with as a possible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_SEAL_Delivery_System (I have calculated the most probable location of vault 111 as being at the centre of the large circular driveway slightly north of https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Great+Meadows+National+Wildlife+Refuge/@42.4756627,-71.3330381,4808m/data=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1526246-the-glowing-sea/!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0000000000000000:0xbf6cbd4a2b47e5a4!6m1!1e1 marker). In this way, those inside the vault could escape through the tunnel with the help of the small submersible seen in the concept art.

This tunnel was most likely used by the Institute to allow them to bypass the vault security protocols and abduct your spouse and child. Note that they would have removed the entire cryogenic pod due to the immense pressure inside the vault at the time. The submersible itself would be retrieved by our protagonist at some point after leaving the vault, possibly as part of a side quest. It would then be airlifted from the lake via vertibird and taken to Boston Harbor, where it could then be used for underwater exploration.

Okay looking at the concept art again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5esyZPt5Jo

3:32 - person walking along beach to lighthouse

3:47- person next to wooden buildings on the shore and picture above them of beachside houses.

Not really important but seems to suggest that the shoreline isn't a irradiated wasteland.

but maybe an important one....

3:39 top left (to the corner of the middle pic) there appears to be a greenish picture which is mostly blocked and if you unpause for a second the repause it again there is what I think is a radar or control panel?

Can anybody get a better look, it looks as if it may be a view maybe from a minisub or some sort of submersible (suit or vehicle)....weirdly it seems they have put it in the footage then partially blocked it with a thin picture of a unremarkable building)

Oh and looking again at the Chinese Submarine (4:27) I'd say its doubtful thats its a nuclear missile boat since the rear area that would usually hold the missile tubes is tiny compared to the rest of the sub....and I believe I can see three (?) torpedo tubes on the prow....so I'm thinking its a hunter killer (attack) sub type.

The clean water would certainly suggest the expansion of Project Purity further along the East Coast, which would have a direct impact on the start date (6-8 years after Fallout 3 would be a good rough estimate, which would mean either 2283 or 2285)

Looking at the 'control panel' you mentioned in the greenish picture, it kind of reminds me of http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_3_Submersible_Vehicles and http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120508131947/callofduty/images/thumb/1/16/SEAL_Delivery_Vehicle_2_MW2.png/500px-SEAL_Delivery_Vehicle_2_MW2.png. Which would actually be kind of cool!

As for the Chinese Sub, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Ohio-class_submarine_launches_Tomahawk_Cruise_missiles_(artist_concept).jpg image shows an Ohio Class submarine with top-mounted missile tubes near the front end (more details on the sub can be seen http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ohio) And so it is entirely plausible that the one seen in the concept art may still carry a full nuclear payload.