I've removed the reference to previous games because this comment of yours can pretty much stand on its own.

I've done a *lot* of game design -- my husband and I ran an extremely popular DikuMUD for over 10 years -- and I know exactly where you are coming from. Since most people would be unfamiliar with the word "verisimilitude", I prefer to use the phrase "world logic". Yes, there is a lot lacking in FO3, but that's normal for many games. You could spend a four years just working on that alone, but you really have to draw the line somewhere and get the game out and on the shelves. What I'm saying is that, to me, most of the illogical FO3 world is forgivable and I know it will either be explained or fixed by Beth at some point, or a modder will come along and do it for them.

Just my 2 caps
Eileen

Generalizations never work. And 20 is very young compared to most members using this section most of whom don't seem elitist in the least. :shrug:

If 20 is middle aged, I'm a rock.

20 is a young mans middle age thats how i can say im an old fart at the quarter century mark :lmao:

What i'm trying to say is if you go into the game looking for these things and then be nit picky about them, then yes there are going to be inconsistencies. What would you have had Bethesda do create an irradiated farm where fruits and vegetables are grown? Then someone would have found something wrong with that. I agree with you that things should make sense, but developers and writers can only do so much with games to make them make sense and be consistant. You have to take the good with the bad, it just bothers me that people find the littlest things to complain about or hold against a great game. The game does talk about water purifiers, and a water treatment plant, as well as a food sanitizer, and Dr. Li even has carrots and potatoes in her lab and I agree they could have went a step further and gave some sort of explanation about this, but at some point you just have to step back and say 'it comes from somewhere'.

Thanks, its good to find people who understand the concept. The thing that bugs me the most though, is that if this was the first game in the series it would not have bothered me so much. Whats annoying is that the problems with verisimilitude in Fallout 3 have already been adressed in its predecessors, which makes the oversight even more illogical.

To be specific, here's what could have been fixed in not such a hard way:

* Cartebury Commons has large pastures for the Brahmin. They trade meat, jerky, fodder for other animal grazing settlements, leather, etc.

* Rivet City trades a small ammount of vegetables grown in its hydroponics bays, scrap metal cannibalised from the hull where not essential, and radiation purified, but foul tasting and sickly water. This is due to a chemical compound used to treat the water, which is unique in its radiation absorbing properties, but having a side effect of causing the water to have a foul taste and has severely dangerous health problems. These include cancer, diarhoea, high fevers and so on. Being one of the few places where wastelanders can get unhealthy, but drinkable water, there is little choice. Either die of thirst now or die of cancer in 10 years time. Easy choice. So RIvet City trades mainly in water.

* Little Lamplight, also a trader or water, but more importantly, of the chemical compound used by the purifiers on Rivet City to treat the water from radiation. Obviously rivet city and little lamplight have a good trade relationship. They also trade excess water from their underground aquifers, fungus from the caverns, and gemstones which can also be encountered in the mines where the chemical compound is mined.

* Megaton, being near an airport and having access to many technical parts and paraphernalia, trades mainly tools, bullets, engines, weapons parts, mechanical stuff, scrap metal, batteries, bullets and so on.

* Andale. Large fields where corn, wheat, apples, fruit, vegetables and so on are grown. Like a south carolina family in the 19th century, they have large estates tended by many slaves purchase from paradise falls. Obviously Andale is the bread basket of the capital wasteland.

Add home made water purification devices on river-sides, wells, and so on, and there you go. I have fixed the main problem regarding verisimilitude in Fallout 3, and added a belieavable system of trade.



Griff, the problem is the problems, or oversights, present in Fallout 3 had already been adressed in previous games. So its nonsensical that these solutions were ignored when they could have easily been fixed. Im not saying the other games were perfect, they also had similar problems. New Reno and San Fran in FO2 made very little sense. But as this is a FO3 discussion, I will try to keep to it.

Is it possible this can be moved from the general forums? This thread contains a huge amount of spoilers.

Well, it is a review. And it is stated at the start of the thread there will be spoilers.

EDIT: Okay, nvm. If spoilers aren't allowd then fine.

Done. Spoilers never are allowed in Fallout 3 general. And thanks for reminding me. Sorry.

Agreed, however we need to remember that it is Bethesda's first Fallout game. There is so much Fallout lore and canon it's amazing. I could spend a week, easy, reading the Fallout Wiki.



Yes, and I could add a zillion other things, as well as list some aesthetic mistakes for the time period and area. So, where do you draw the line?

If they did everything, nothing would ever be finished and FO3 would just be vapourware. I can't even imagine how ginormous the game would be if it were perfect. It's mind-boggling.

No, I say wait and see what Beth does next.

My 2 caps,
Eileen

I really enjoyed reading this and all the comments that were added.

I have to agree on the Inconsistancies - OP - you talk about the cars - I noticed the buildings.

If we go back 200 years in Real Life we are in the early 1800's - think of all that "we" have done since then!

Buildings were the first thing I noticed....NO BUILDERS, MASONS or CARPENTERS survived? You have all that wood left over in the abandoned buildings. All the stone, windows, plumbing fixtures etc in half demolished "Downtown" areas. All re-usable building materials. There isn't ONE survivor that can build or teach others to create a LIVABLE (decent) housing area??

You can find Detergent and cleaning supplies all over the place - WHY don't they use them - why the filthy homes, toilets, matresses etc??? There is no reason for the dirt and filth that is everywhere. I have stumbled onto rakes and brooms - nobody figured out how to use simple tools to clean up? But 'they' can create Power Suits, laser weapons and Stempacks?

I loved the idea of the Trading (see above) between the settlements. Veggies from one area, meds from another etc - this makes a lot of sense. Caravans that take these items from one area to another make sense.

The only other thing (for me) is that this game has SO much to do! I am already lvl 10 and JUST reached Rivet City! I have more than half the map to explore and I am going to run out of levels before I explore it all! I would LOVE this to be more open-ended! Let me continue to explore, loot, kill, hunt and just generaly play longer!

OR give me the option (after level 20) to change my skills and stats. This way I can continue to play (as long as I do NOT do the final quest) and still change or add skills.

This is the first game I can remember playing where I DON'T want to "level-out"! I am having a ball playing this game! I remember growing up in the 50's and love the old music and design concept used in some of the details!

One last comment = Hon - you are not "middle-aged" at 20! I am 63 and my mother just turned 92. Mother still TEACHES DANCING and does yoga every morning (and lives with her 'boy-friend' TeeHee).

I agree with some of the review, disagree with the rest of it, and generally don't are to rehash all of these now familiar and rather tired talking points. I consider much of the arguments prsented by the OP as overthinking the game, which, to be fair, is the purview of a reviewer, but not necessiarly the game.

This has more to do with the franchise and the disappointment of a small number of die hard fans.

I agree with you, it is overthinking. It has more to do with the fact most, but not necessarily all, die hard fans of Fallout are those who played Fallout 1 and 2 first. Its much easier to appreciate Fallout 3 for that it is if you ignore the previous games. Heck, I started with Fallout 2 and quite frankly did not like Fallout 1 as much. But if you can put up with antiquated graphics and a turn based combat system you will see why there is so much 'overthinking' about Fallout 3 by 'die hard fans'.

Like I said, its still one of the best games of 2008, in the same way I would have said Fallout 1 and 2 were the best games in their fields of 1997 and 1998 respectively. The problem is the first two Fallouts excelled where Fallout 3 fails, and Fallout 3 excells where its predecessors failed. But the old guard prioritise the high points of the older games, and the new fanbase praises the high points of the new game. They are all excellent games in their own right, my only beef is FO3 commited some mistakes which have already been adressed in previous games. Its easier to understand if you have played all three games.

I did play all three games...several times, in order. Fallout 1 was a great game. Fallout 2 was not a great game. Fallout 3 is a great game. As much as Fallout 2 annoyed me from a roleplayer point of view, I still played it several times.

You assume too much. many of us here are old fans of the Fallout Franchise. We just don't care as much about it as some do.

I wasn't assuming you didn't play them, I was simply stating it is easier to comprehend most criticisms of Fallout 3 if you played the earlier versions.

I think you write very well and should continue to do so and maybe pursue a career in it. It's just as good as any review I've ever read in a magazine.
It has been stated that yes, belief must be suspended in any game....you have to pretend or make believe a little bit. One thing that occurs to me, being led by your logic, is where does all this ammo comes from? I've never seen one factory that apparently produces it. Well, I'll just have to pretend that it comes from somewhere and keep using it and try to not let it spoil the immersion that I find big in the game. I'll pretend it's a game and just enjoy it for what it is. Also, I tried playing both Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. I couldn't get past the cheesy 3rd person isometric view long enough to get immersed. That's just me. I'm sure that it is deep, like a very good book, but I had to pass.

Haha thanks. Really, it was just an idea I had after seeing all the negativity on NMA and praise elsewhere, im no writer. Well FO1 had a town/gang producing new bullets from empty casings, so thats something to look into.

Also, ''Cheesy'' isometric view? lol thats one I never heard before. Back then that was the norm for RGP's I think, im not a big RPG fan, Fallout being my main experience.

There were some FP (SSI gold box comes to mind), but several other iso views, like the Ultimas. If I had to choose a favorite game of all time, it would probably Ultima 7, which was Iso. Iso didn't bother me that much in the first Fallouts, but I didn't much like it either. Even back then I had wished it was FP.

That was the thing that always bothered me about games like that. Point and click navigation always bothered me. I didn't get into games until Morrowind. Then I could relate that we were in a 3D world where you could turn anyway you wanted and go "over there" in first person. I can enjoy Daggerfall and Arena more than I can Neverwinter Nights for example. Like I said that's just me. Maybe I'm just old.

I attempted a response to the OP with more detail, but then just got lazy and gave up. Your post sums up my thoughts very well.

Not sure if it was intentional, but you misspoke.

Quite possibly a "small number" of fans in general, of videogames, are disappointed. That is debateable. However, the number of die-hard Fallout fans disappointed could hardly be considered small. I would be willing to bet the farm (to quote a phrase) that the number of die-hard Fallout fans disappointed by this game is closer to the 90% mark than anything less than 50% (which would really be the only way to call that group "small").

It's easy to throw these marginalizations out there while flailing a limp wrist to the air saying "Psssh, it's just a few of you fan-boyz whining" as long as you don't take into account nearly all of the websites dedicated to gaming who have no purpose or gain from advertising who've basically panned Fallout 3 worse than I have. It's out there. To claim it's not is silly. To say it's just a few bitter old cRPG'ers is silly. It's out there and it's not a demographic to be taken lightly considering it is the antithesis to the 'sploshun generation.

Personally I wouldn't mind a seat somewhere in the middle (not for myself, but to be realistic) but to claim that power in numbers is relevant only makes that statment "quality over quantity" that much more poignant.

And how many "die hard" fallout fans are there, compared to the potential market for fO3? A small number, I'd wager If I had to choose to appease one or the other, the choice is clear.

Nah, c'mon. If you wanted to make money you'd have a clear choice maybe. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about forums, marginalization and the bending of words to make a situation seem like something it isn't.

If I were Beth, I would be wanting to make money. That's my purpose, not to lose money servicing a very small market. I'd let the Indys do that Fallout 2 part 2.

The problem with the NMA crowd is that they argue they represent some huge mass of players capable of destroying Bethesda, should Beth have the unmitigated gull to not deliver exactly what they want. Well, where are these huge masses? Looks like FO3 is doing well enough without them, or 90% of them anyway, as you claim.

Why is that even an option ? Appeasing to either or ? I fail to see why they couldn't have done both. The diehard wants, say, strong SPECIAL, well written dialogue and a believable world, the new market wants free-roaming game play, exploration and the opportunity to (no other way to put this) LARP within game. Both of them could get what they want.

Do you really see how?

Exploding heads, Fatman, exploding cars, short main quest, simple dialogue and forgiving character creation are all aspects that sell well in the console market. These same things are abhorred by the traditional Fallout fans.


Like I said, every aspect of gameplay that inhibits console sales must be short circuited for the console crowd, because if we don't, the game won't sell, and no one will get anything.