Ok so I followed the "Is Ulfric that Bad" post and that went ALL over the place. It changed my view from 100% Imperial to on the fence again. In light of that I am focusing this topic so maybe we can get this topic to have a general consensus in the lore community (though somehow I doubt it :/).

The focus of this thread is anolyzing not the past actions, or morality of Ulfric/ the Stormcloaks, or Tullius/ the Empire, its a debate base on how has the best chance against another invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion. Where talking about ALL of Tamriel here, so if this gets too into 1 provinces or the other Ill remind you the objective of this post. Remember to think mainly about army organization/ leaders, natural racial abilities, and how they tend to fair against each other. Also think about relations between the races if the provinces were to become independent and such... thats about all I got, all thats really left to say is remember to stay away from talking about the past and morality as much as possible and stay more to war, and... go make awesome points like I know this forum always does!!!

For the future, i think having the stormcloaks rule skyrim would be better. That way they could try to ally with the forces of hammerfell and also make a uneasy alliance with the empire somewhere in the future to conquer the summerset isles or even just valenwoods. That would be enough to trap the thalmor back on the isles, making them a lesser threat.

Key problem, to wage war on the Thalmor, they would have to march through Cyrodiil or sail, which is a bad idea when facing Alinor in battle (their navy rawks).

For the average citizen in Skyrim, nothing really changes either way minus Talos becoming a "real" god again.

As if anyone on either side of the conflict ever bought in to that malarkey.

They could just allied together and conquer valenwoods, armies from skyrim, highrock, cyrodill, and hammerfell should be able to do this easily. The thalmor forces would be trapped in summerset isles. Losing valenwoods would be a huge blow to the high elves, they would also lose a lot of troops trying to defend it, hurting the thalmor even more.

Over the decades/centuries the human race would gain more and more number, eventually outnumbering the high elves 100 to 1 since humans reproduce faster and its 4 province vs 1 in reproduction. When this time comes they could finally storm alinor through sheer number and ships.

concensus will be impossible, we've got too many patriots on each side for that

Personally, I choose Empire. Aside from the obvious advantages of being more coordinated and able to move troops from Skyrim through Cyrodiil more without trouble, the Empire, provided things went well enough, could reannex parts of the Dominion.

Pretty much.

Yes, someone restarted this topic! [not bothering to find the appropriate happy face]

I remain supportive of the empire, specifically because I look to the future regarding the Thalmor. The other thread did have a lot of points regarding the empire's corruption, weaknesses, and overall undesirability, and were it not for the fact that the Aldmeri Dominion is lying in wait to snap up Tamriel piece by piece, I would not mind seeing the remnants of the empire crumble. However, newly-independent territories with long histories and the distrust and baggage to go with it do not a happy alliance make. And the Thalmor, ambitious as they are, managed to wait more than a century before making an overt move against the weakened empire. I have stated before that, without the rest of the empire adding manpower to its legions, Cyrodiil will almost certainly fall into Thalmor hands. And then they'll happily wait another thirty years or more before the next individual territory becomes too weak to defend itself effectively, and they'll snap that one up too. Another thirty years, and another one will go too. This is a long-term strategy that I feel could work to the Thalmor's advantage... if the empire doesn't correct its own dissolution now so that there won't be any independent territories that fall into harm's way.

Why do I equate the independence of Skyrim with the whole empire's fall? Think of its geography. Right now the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and what few pieces of Morrowind survived the Red Year. Now remove Skyrim from the mix. Cyrodiil and Morrowind are now totally cut off from High Rock by any means except by sea, and the only sea routes leading from Cyrodiil to High Rock go straight through Aldmeri seas. If Skyrim goes, High Rock is cut off and is left to its own devices by default. Cyrodiil will therefore be forced to face Thalmor aggression on its own.

I remember a post in the previous thread in which someone claimed that learning to stand up for itself was a lesson that Cyrodiil should learn anyway. That's true. The thing is, to learn a lesson, you have to survive it, and something tells me that Cyrodiil wouldn't. After all, haven't the supporters of the Stormcloaks pointed out all of the different ways that the empire, and its capital, are weak and ungovernable? If Skyrim splits, High Rock goes too; Morrowind can't help anyway; and Cyrodiil is presented to the Thalmor on a silver platter. Giving up territory to an enemy that seeks world conquest doesn't seem to be a winning strategy to me.

Edit: Also...


Thank you. I admit to almost never choosing sides in TES games for morality's sake. It's pretty much impossible to find a successful faction with morals in this universe, which honestly is one of the reasons that this series is one of my favorites.

Its totally obvious the Dragonborn sided with the StormCloaks, you start as a prisoner with them, Ralof is the one telling you to get up that the Gods wont give you a second chance, and if it was not obvious enough the StormCloaks fight for Tamriel greatest Hero, Talos... the Empire is in decadence we all know it, they sided with the Bad Guys and now invade Skyrim, which belongs to who? the nords... Its too damn Obvious! geesh even the empire now refuses to acknowledge Talos.

Its too obvious, Dovahkiin is a nord not an Imperial, he would first aid his brother rather than side with the jerks who tried to cut his head... it was all a miss understanding right... right?

What are you talking about? Dovahkiin is an orc.

My bad, but youre wrong too! he was a Khajit!

No, she's an Argonian.

OT, I'd say the Empire, for reasons already stated. It might be old and frail, but with a bigger potential to stand against the Dominion.

Would Hammerfell even ally with Skyrim? Redguards see mortality as a prison same like altmer anyway it wouldn't be far-fetched to speculate that the dominion bring hammerfell to their side with the promise of "freeing" them from the prison.



What are you talking about? Your dovahkiin maybe a nord but that doesn't mean that other players dovahkiin is a nord. Mine is an Imperial.

Easy.

Dragonborn.

Mary cries salt tears. The Sons of Talos rejoice. Pass the sweet rolls.

Doesn't matter in the long run. As long as the Thalmor are enemies of the Dragonborn and his Dragon pets... they will lose, horribly.

Skyrim is not the empire, and the "Empire" is not Tamriel... i think it fits more into future lore if the Dragonborn sided with the Stormcloaks, the empire need to go and new empire needs to rise.

Very, very doubtful. Especially considering Hammerfell and the Dominion just finished fighting a war with each other in which the Dominion was forced out of Hammerfell.

I think an independent Skyrim would be just as useful as a Skyrim that is part of the Empire. Think about it, with a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim, it certainly isn't a stretch to say that, although they hate the Empire, they probably hate the Dominion even more. I think that if Cyrodiil was invaded, Skyrim would come to it's aid.

The dragonborn will side with neither of the two according to Lore, so that's irrelevant.

As for which side is the best to fight them?

Well with the Empire you have High Rock, Skyrim and Cyrodiil united. Which could be an advantage but little to no possibility of getting Hammerfell on your side, and while you may technically have Morrowind they would be unwilling and probably unable to go to war.

With the Stormcloacks you could have an alliance between Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock, possibly even Cyrodiil which would be an immediate advantage in terms of manpower. However the question is how effective would such an alliance be, how likely are they to even go and fight the Thalmor and how could you possible claim Elsweyr and Valenwood away from the Thalmor?

With the Empire you can conquer those provinces and create a new standing army there, returning the provinces to the Empire. With an alliance that would be much harder, Skyrim would have no possibility of ruling those provinces and even for Hammerfell and High Rock it would be hard, but what reason would they have for giving those provinces to Cyrodiil. Keeping them independent might also be hard, because you will have to deal with a shaky ally that could still support the Thalmor, and even if not they would be responsible for cracking down on the dissident part of their own population something that does not easily happen.

For an offensive war agaisnt the Thalmor I would thus side with the Empire, however if the Thalmor are the first to attack (again) I would prefer Skyrim to be alone.

If Cyrodiil falls then the Thalmor still won't have an easy time getting into Skyrim, crossing the mountains and invading a hostile country that always has winter. The sea option would still be impossible. Skyrim could meanwhile aid Hammerfell or even the Empire with the troops they can spare without risking their own province.

If Skyrim is a member of the Empire still then most of Skyrim her legions would be used to protect Cyrodiil, which means large open battles that can go either way, and give no real tactical advantage to either one side.

It's actually pretty far-fetched. The Ra'ga believe that you have to break free of the prison and its up to the individual soul to prove himself worthy/capable of reaching the Far Shores. Ruptga placed the stars in the sky to show them the way, and life is considered a test of strength; to fail means to have to remain imprisoned, unworthy of joining their brothers. Destroying the world isn't in the Ra'ga perogative.

Just like how Dunmer beliefs aren't totally (like barely) in line with mannish thinking, Raga beliefs aren't actually very similar to old merry.

All of your points are very good ones, but this one stood out to me. I can't say I've ever considered it this way before, and I plan to give it more thought. That said, assuming the Thalmor attack first, I stand by my belief that Cyrodiil alone cannot stand unless it has very good relations with its neighbors (which it doesn't). Should the Stormcloaks win in Skyrim and the Thalmor attack again, Skyrim will probably be better served by Ulfric's leadership, but it won't help the rest of Tamriel at all.

what i feel sould happen is fight as the empire but when the thalmor are dead dismantel it and begin anew with a better empire

Even if the Thalmor some how managed to come out on top, the fact that most of Valenwood and Elsewyr arent behind the Dominion fully and because man will keep fighting them, pretty much make a collapse inevitable.

I see Skyrim remaining a split territory because there are enough Nords that like the Empire to prevent a full takeover.
Hammerfell will likely always avoid rejoining the Empire, but they would still work with them.

I'm nearly 100% positive that Bosmer rebellions and the Khajiit realizing that the Thalmor had nothing to do with the moons(those will happen) will leave the Aldmeri's without a foot on the mainland

My Dovahkiin isn't a Nord, He's an Imperial, and he didn't side with the Stormcloaks. He helped get rid of them. In fact most of my characters either side with Empire or stay out of the fight.

I side with the Empire because I believe it has the better armies, and I don't buy into the argument that the Stormcloaks make for better, non-corrupt leaders. Stormcloak Jarls are just as corrupt as anyone in the empire and if the Stormcloaks did win as Peloponnese said it would only help Skyrim itself not anyone else and I find it debatable how good them winning would even be for Skyrim. As for the argument that each province being split from the empire and still working together I'll believe that when I see it. I don't trust multiple leaders who will extremely likely have their own strong motivations to work together without there being many many problems.

Check out the All Flags NavyTrannigan. Unilateral assault on the Sloads of Thras by the nations of Tamriel.

edit: Also, hazzah! another Kentuckian!