Unless you are talking just about the Sino-America War than that isn't true at all. We know alot about the Great War and what resulted from it by the intros of the Fallout Games.

When it comes to the Sino-American War we know alot. Just because the information we do know was writen by American's doesn't mean it is bull crap propaganda which some people seem to be implying. By that logic everything about American history writen by American's shouldn't be considered factual history. Same goes for every country on Earth.

Since there is a memorial to a military campaign in the Game, this shows two things. 1) America invaded China all the way to the yangtze river and 2) It was done long enough ago for them to build a Memorial. So it is possible America managed to make it all the way to the yangtze river at the heart of China in just a few months and not ten months.

So then youre sayign theyll all rally against the states? It would be dificult getting things together and actually mkae any kind of strike. But I would think youre right, theyd at least be some resistance.



I would wonder about the US falling apart on the inside, after there is no serious enemy, too.

There is always another enemy.

I dont think the idea is as much that it is bullcrap, as that it isn't necessarily factual.


We have to keep in mind that there were no Americam citizens traveling outside of the US and no real way for American citizens to know what was going on outside of its borders. All they knew is what they were told.

The US Govt (shadow or otherwise) was lying to its people as they were building vaults for other than purported puproses.

So, there is definately a lot of mis-information put out to keep the public following along like good little lambs.
How much is based in truth or not, we cannot say, because there is no empirical source that we are given.

But you can say that about everything. The argument is "American's wrote it so we can't trust it to be true." So that means we can't trust anything writen by American's about their own history.

LOL

I did say I was puting nuance to a view.. wasn't I
What I meant was: let me be clear about it: I don't argue that the Sino-American War happened and mostly played out the way lore is depicting.... However.. I also stated that history by one source is always biased to that one source.. In other words.. we don't know how... successful the war was for the Americans..
IE while it is suggested that America was having the upper hand, lore (specifically the comment about how we didn't know who launched first strike) suggest it would be more like a stalemate.

yes good that you pointed out the ww2 east front, until Stalingrad it locked very promising for the Germans and most part off the world that that Germans was going to win, but whit to long supply lines and killing winter ....


what did quotation about Napoleon "don't try to win a land war on Russia", i guess its the same about china

That is a hollow argument IMO. When there is only two sides and both are mortal enemies you aren't going to get consistant accounts. The side that wins is going to play it up and the side that lost is going to down play it. So this means you need a third party, but the problem is who does the third party support.

At some point you just have to trust that the information we have about the Sino-American War is right. We also have a memorial to the Campaign. So not all the information we know about the Sino-American War is just writen down information.

America drove China out of Alaska and was overrunning Mainland China. They had no reason to Nuke China. Now if China managed to drive America's forces (That had T-51b PA) out of China and started Overrunning the lower 48 states then maybe America would have a reason to nuke China and start WW3. But there is nothing to support that China managed to stop America's invasion of China in 2077, let alone completely turn the tide of war.

Japan had to put in a lot of resource's and units to keep control of China in WW2

Not entirely true. In the real world we do have accounts from other countries and witnesses about what happened. And we have actually been slammed by the rest of the world for omitting certain historic events- which also shows that we aren't always honest about our history.. but we do have that check and balance of being in aworld where we have access to people in other nations and them to us that keeps us mostly honest.

This differs from the fallout universe, because they have no interaction with other countries and are in a highly militaristic state of affairs well before the great war occurs and even post war we are only ever given accounts on the wars from American perspectives.

fallout USA is in many ways very similar to North Korea is in to day world

I wonder how they would ge their start, though.. THey have virtually no resources left at this point.. The resource wars and all.
It would take a while to get stockpiles and numbers together to even think about forming plans.
I dont think an offensive from remaining countries is an option.. Only resistance.. for a great period of time anyway. ?

Not every event has a third party sitting around to witness it. Even some of the people that "slam" America the most do it simply because they don't like America so they are biased as well. The further back you go in time you notice that many third party accounts of events happened after the fact. They interviewed both sides and came up with their own view. So that also screws things.

To completely ignore what we do know about the Sino-American War simply because they come from American sources is bull.

It would be if we knew what happened in China..
Don't mistake nuance for it's all BS. My argument about subjetive history has to do with how powerful America would be had the great war not happened.
We wouldn't know... All we know is their pre-war description of the events leading up towards the great war.
The games lore basically suggests (without Chinese sources) that the war between China and Amercica was at a stallmate. (this is the producers talking via the narration)
Compare it to 'Nam before the Tet offensive the US were actually holding most of Vietnam... however.. after that offensive.. both American sentiment (at home) as well as a rise in Vietcong activity led to the disbanding of the US presence in Indochina.
(Russia in Afghanistan is another fine example, of a won war which was lost)

The FO timeline shows us a isolationistic America, so no foreign media and a probably less liberal media rule the day.... So less pressure by the homefront and probably History being more biased..
Again I am not arguing that events didn't happen..but (for the threads sake) I do argue the notion that America would rule the planet if the great war hadn't happened.
Why... because we have no objective data.

I still dont think anyone is saying that it is complete crap, or to completely ignore anything.

You just can't take it to the bank is all. You have to take it with a grain of salt. or not- the idea that people can interprit their own things is a good selling point in a game. It is also why I think things are a lot less absolute than some lorehouds would.


This world and the Fallout wrld are.. worlds apart in terms of information freedom.

If you are a shut in nation that is miliatristic and proud, you are most assuredly going to tell your people that you are mopping the floor with the opponent. You are going to have as much fan fare as possible to keep people enlisting and rallying to the cause. You most certainly couldntteh citizens believing they were on a sinking ship! The government would not tell them if they were, because then they would have an international enemy and have to deal with probelms at home.. It would be a mess.

We do know what happened to China. They were nuked to hell along with the rest of the world.


I know you aren't saying it's all bull. I am saying there are people trying to make that case. Saying that since we only know what happened from American accounts then we can't trust it. Which is bull.


From the date of China's invasion of Alaska, to 2077 it was a stalemate. But then America took back Alaska. Then they started to invade China. We have accounts that they made it all the way to the Yangtze River. There is a War Mamorial for crying out loud. Last I check people don't build those for things that never happened.



Things are alway biased. There is no such thing as an unbiased account. Like I said most third party accounts of events before the modern technology like Radio, TV, Jets, Internet, ect, ect were after the fact. The third party came along and interviewed bothsides, sometimes years after and came up with their own version.

I am not saying America would have taken over the world if not for the Great War. I am simply saying America would have won the Sino-American War. The Commies would have been killed to the last man or forced to surrender.


I believe vajan is saying exactly that.

Eeeh... how...?
-America is a common wealth of several nations, Northern Korea is just one nation
-America is a democracy in the FO world
-America is isolationist in FO but so is every other nation. While NK is probably the only true isolationist nation in our day.
-NK is not waging war or seeking expansion because of resources.. it basicaly said to its people ....Prrrttt..



Well how exactly is this any different from what me and Cannibalclub are arguing...?
Fact we only know what happened to China because of in game sources, and yes... we might conclude that most of those sources are correct. (the world shows us.)

The only thing we don't know is how the war was "won". I am simply stating that the war might well have resembled Nam or Afghanistan. In other words we might have won strategically (hold the most ground etc..) but never really won the war.. The simple fact that both we and China are still able to bomb each other to kingdom come is actually subscribing that..
My comment about how America would rule the world is aimed not at you but at a post by some on page 1... who made this claim.

It is different because we know what happened during the Great War by the intros. The devs of the games are neutral because they are setting the stage for us. They said the world was completely destroyed so that means the world is completely destroyed and that includes China. We didn't learn the world was completely destroyed from a GNR document in the game.

Also it isn't like there is only one source saying America was winning the Sino-American War. There are many sources, granted they are all American sources but there are more than one. There is also a physical structure built to honor a military campaign. That can't be writen off as propaganda.


Without going in to to much real world events (cause we aren't allowed to here) the key difference between the Sino-American War and wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan in out timeline is that there is land to take.

The key problem with the Vietnam War was the only way to show America was winning or losing the war was by body count. This also applies to Afghanistan but the guys in charge won't admit that, they would say they are winning by the number of kids learning to read and stuff like that.

For wars such as WW2 and the Sino-American War the clear indicator of victory is the taking of land from the enemy. The more land you take from the enemy the more you are winning. So the more land America takes from the Chinese the more they are winning.

'

standard for all partisan war is to pray on the week links in the supply lines.

well i just it in some points is similar.
-the isolation
-AL (foreign) media is controlled by the government
- they are not that democratic democracy in the fo world
- Korea is still in war

yes in way, just that what the in game info say is not 100% truth, its may be from manipulated to pure fabricated info.... depends a lot where the info come from. and then the cans the computer files is corrupted and just miss lead it.

i men its a big difference betwen the info we get from the valts and public media contra what we find in a army bunker/chines spy hub.

but just lock at the media war to day .... to only let the home front know whats good for their support and moral so they will keep support the war, and not end as the vietnam war.

Nobody (in our argument) is denying this...
We are simply puting question-marks to the way the Sino-American conflict went.. because we only have in game American sources. There simply is no objective source to confirm the American description of the conflict,.. and in the world of FO we never will...
We only really know what the intro's tell us. That is the point.
Does that diminish the lore.. No.. Does it mean the FO world is different, when we put this questions to that lore.. No... does it change the gaming world no.. etc. etc.

It is an argument to the point this thread tries to make.. IE what would the world look like if there hadn't been a nuclear escalation... then well we might question the might of the American military.


- Isolation is a concept embraced by nearly every nation in the world in FO.. thus America cannot be compared to the current Northern Korea
- Democracy is Democracy.. The politics of the FO world might be influenced by a different world view, they are not that different from ours.
- America certainly did not have any control over foreign media (and btw neither is NK). The control over their own media is only limited by nationalism.. it is the prevalent sentiment which is fed by the government.
- the point of the FO series is that there will always be war (or conflict) because it is human nature.. It has nothing to do with the Korea situation.

we also have to think on that what we are talking about hear is and result of an archaeological digging and not similar to and 200 year old war as Anglo-American War of 1812 to 1815. rater a digging in ancient Mesopotamia!

-------
-yes true FO USA is more isolated then NK but NK is the closes thing we have to day to compare whit.
- USA fallout is not an democracy they are an militaristic puppet junta that dot care about human rights and other nations as Canada and Mexico. they are as much democracy as any communist country.
-no id not say us had control on foreign media, they had control in what new that printed in USA.
- yes we are al in war and NK have had that the last 60 years + WW2 and 1870 japan start the militarily occupied of Korea

China would have been successfully invaded and robbed of what valuable resources it had.
Chinese agents would be fighting a guerilla war in Washington until the US Army returned and did a sweep of the city.
Small uncommunicating cells may have survived but left their objective and accepted their defeat and either committed suicide or joined American society.
Work on Adv. Power Armour mk.II's production would have been quicker with these casulties - that's if it was even started.
Control of Deathclaws would be perfected and they wouldn't be running riot throughout the country.
Super Mutants may have been created but because of better resources and safer conditions the process might have allowed for them to recreate through six rather than gathering everyone up and throwing them in the vats.

hmmm just to test that theory, if we say the opposite, that China win the war do you think americans admit the defeat and become communists and so on?



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But what happened about the topic!

Then we have to lock at diff possible alternative that start the nuke -rain!

• As you think China give up and fire of what they have.....
  
• China do a Stalingrad at at Yangtze break threw and cut the supply lined and put the US army in a pocket... US try to stop whit nuke′s...
  
• US or Chines force's violate USSR border and USSR chop the soft neck on the US week N - font and US nuke USSR...
  
• US or Chines force's violate USSR border and USSR and USSR answer whit their nukes.....
  
• India hit the soft belly on the US force's in China, the hole US advanced collapse and .....
  
• The South - American empire advance up thru Mexico and USA try to win one front fast whit nuke′s .....
  
• Europe, they start their war in the 2050′s and how many years do you thing it took for them to burn all their resource's? 5-10 year′s? whitch men they have a chance to recover and come back some how and made some stupid movies and the rain started.....
  
• Africa who knows what they was up to....

And if it is as you say that US did not have any bases in the rest off the world except from what they needed for the war whit china they cud not see the other nations move until it was to late. even if you kud spot whit satellites one tank fire on another tank its still pretty hard to know who's tank it is unless you have ppl on ground to identify ...

I men you cant see every thing whit satellites to day .... a well you can see that some one walk whit a RPG in Afghanistan.... you know its their so logical it must be a Taliban... but it also can be a civilian caring a led -pipe. But you know that sins you know the Taliban's are controlling that area sins you have ppl on ground to confirm that ...

I touched on this elsewhere, but either side would spread to other countries..

Either China to escape/attepmt to flank US advances, or the US to contain Chinese forces
What happens when that indirectly throws other counrties into the fray?