Yes I know, another one...but maybe this thread can bring us all together. If anyone senses any bias toward any of the questions, please let me know and give me suggestion on how to improve on it.

Also, let me know on how I did with the poll.

Yay! 10,000 posts!

Wow, somebody apart from myself actually included Hammerfell in to a CW poll. Nice.

I'm pro Stormcloak and think that when the Dominion is defeated everyone who fought against them should take the credit. I'm sure you can guess the rest of my answers.


Also, congratulations on 10,000. We're all very proud.

The only change I'd suggest, being neutral insomuch as I don't support either the current Imperial or SC agendas, is that I still view the Thalmor as the real enemy, and would support any combination of alliances against them. Nice balanced poll, though.

first, grats on the 10000 posts shadow!

Second, I voted "I am an and am neutral", as i see the pros and cons on each side.

The other one's not even finished, but no matter. We can talk about 'togetherness' after Skyrim is independent. The rest of this is obvious as both sides talk of alliances in some shape or form, but a discussion to bring the SC and Imp supporting sides together to me seems....apologetic. Not my cup of tea.

I'll be honest with you, BOTH sides of this conflict have valid reasons to believe in their cause. It was pretty cowardly for the Empire to go along with banishing the worship of Talos....that would be like our government banning the worship of Jesus Chist, Buddha, or any other belief many people hold strongly....its just wrong not matter how you look at it.

On the flipside, it was wrong for Ulfric to challenge the High King, to a duel, for no reason other than to kill him so he show "how tough he is". It really makes you wonder what the Greybeards ever saw in a guy with an Ego like Ulfric's...

In the end, if the Empire is victorious, then they have enough forces to keep a stalemate going with The Dominion, perhaps the manpower to even defeat them later.

In the end, if the Stormcloaks win, it only makes sense that Skyrim and Hammerfell both join together in Alliance as they would both be "outcasts" of the Empire by both breaking away in one shape or form.

However, the end result will be the same, either of these two alliance...Independent Skyrim/Hammerfell or Unified Empire minus Hammerfell is going to have another fight with the Dominion at some point....now who wins that fight regardless how things shake out remains to be seen.

Both the Imperials and Stormcloaks have good reasons to fight, and good reasons to fight against them as well. I just wish that everybody was one big happy family....a big happy family that hates the Thalmor, I mean. Also, congrats on 10k posts!

You can't seriously think that is the only reason? He did it as a way to gain support because he knew some would see him as the rightful ruler for winning, and also see his victory as a symbolic win over the Empire. Torygg wasn't showing him signs of seceding so Ulfric took it into his own hands and used Torygg's death as a means to rally half of Skyrim to his side to try and take Skyrim, since I'm sure he knew the Empire wouldn't just let the moot decide.

Meh. Neutral. Pro-Aldmeri Dominion.

Ulfric didn't help matters much by bringing attention to Skyrim. The Empire was fine with not noticing that people were still worshiping Talos. The Imperial Legion didn't draw attention to it, and the Thalmor weren't noticing the omission. Until Ulfric forced the issue. With no other recourse, the Empire had to enforce the Concordat. Whatever his ambitions were, I don't buy the whole outraged Nord out to reclaim Skyrim routine. If he truly took the kingship in the old way, he could have appealed to the Moot instead of running. He could be building a broad base of support instead of allowing internal dissension and bigotry/racism. Ulfric is interested only in what Ulfric wants, and he sees only in the short term. After his rebellion bleeds Skyrim white, the Thalmor aren't going to have much of a problem living up to their fighting boasts;

"Time for you humans to learn your place."
"Soon all Nords will be thralls to the Thalmor."
"Behold the future! Behold the Thalmor!"
"Don't you see? Elven supremacy is the only truth."
"You are but a dog and I am your master."

Tullius believed the whole rebellion issue was instigated by the Thalmor; if the Empire is splitting their attention, they aren't building the resources and material to reopen the fight against the Thalmor. Tullius actually says as much at one point.

Ulfric didn't force the issue, Igmund did. It was either accept Igmund's deal or let the Reach stay in Forsworn hands. And who would realistically refuse open worship when its banned?

Also, Ulfric ran because he knew the Empire wouldn't let the moot decide. Look at the situation, he won the duel, and the next rightful ruler is Elisif. Would they go with her, or Ulfric, the man who just challenged the previous king and won? She's got it by marriage, but they know Ulfric may just challenge her as well. She may stand down for that very reason. The moot would likely go in Ulfric's favor and the Empire wouldn't stand by while Ulfric takes Skyrim and secedes. That is why he ran.

Congrats Shadow!!

neutral mostly, anti-Thalmor, anti- whitegold concordant ( religious oppression of any kind), pro allegience either way, all those who fight should get credit.

I'm imperial and I provoke and kill every Thalmor patrol I find on the road.

Considering that Tullius himself won't refuse a party invitation for fear of angering the Thalmor, I'd say killing them is not something they want to do yet. I can only imagine the reaction if you got kicked out of the Legion if you killed ANY Thalmor. Wonder how many Imperials would still support them if they couldn't kill any Thalmor whatsoever.

Its not really an issue.

Gameplay wise, there are no repercussions.

"Lore wise" I guess you can say (?), we can't legally kill them...yet.

Yes it pretty much is the only reason he done it. He didn't have to kill Torygg in order to gain support for his rebellion, The banning of the worship of Talos, The Empire letting the Thalmor enforce the WGC, and the Thalmor dragging people out of their homes at night was more then enough already to get half the country behind him. No, Ulfric killed him just because he could....just to prove to himself and whoever that he is the strong one.

Ulfric won the duel in a cowardly way anyways, he couldn't even fight Torygg "man to man" "blade to blade" instead he had to resort to using the Thu'um to get the upper hand.

The Way of The Voice is sanctioned by The Nine Divines as the correct and only acceptable use of the Thu'um by individuals that are NOT Dragonborn. Arngeir tells you that a Dragonborn is exempted from the rules of the Way of the Voice.

Are you famliair with the lore of Jurgen Windcaller...he was the most powerful of the Ancient Nord Tongues....him and his fellow voices users and their army were annihilated at the Battle of Red Mountain by the Tribunal....Windcaller couldn't figure out why Strong Voices failed.....it was enough to fend off Alduin, but couldn't beat the Tribunal....

7 years later Windcaller realized the Divines punished the Nords for their arrogant militant use of the Voice for Martial exploits...the Divines gave them the ability to shout like Dragons just to defeat Alduin, who wanted to rule the world instead of just endling kalpa's, and to honor the Divines.

When Windcaller told the other Nords about this, 17 of the strongest tongues of the first era challenged Windcaller to combat in dispute. Windcaller swallowed the shouts of all 17 tongues for 3 days until they all lay exhausted....they later became his pupils.

How do you suppose Windcaller, a non-dragonborn, was able to do this? because when the Divines revealed to him why he lost at Red Mountain, they gave him the ability to do this to pound home the point to the Nords that the Voice is NOT meant to be used as a tool in martial exploits.

Since Ulfric is not Dragonborn, not only has be broken the rules of the Greybeards, whom he swore to follow a path, but he has also broken the decree of the 9 Divines on proper use of the Voice. Dragonborn are exempt from the rules of the Way of the Voice, others are not.

Had Ulfric slayed Torygg in a fair fight without using the Th"um, then I may be more inclined to agree with you, but Ulfric just killed Torygg to inflate and stroke his huge ego.....its all about him wanting to be high king....if he cared about Skyrim as much as he says he does, then even if Elisif was named Queen by the moot he would support her (if the cloaks win the civil war), but Ulfric would never support an independent skyrim with someone else as high king, nope, it has to be his way or no way.

Honestly though, Ulfric using the Th"um to kill Torygg is like bringing an Uzi to a sword fight...its not even fair in the least....it would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight...you know whos going to win their...it was cowardly the way Ulfric did it....he should have been a man and fought Torggg blade to blade without using the Th"um.....atleast then I could give Ulfric the nod that he won the fight fair...its just my opinion.

Don't get me wrong though, Tullius is just a cold, insensitive, pompous idiot. its not like the Empire is much better.

^--------

Friend, don't get Colonel started on Jurgen.

To follow up though,

in real life , if i was put into Skyrim's world, if it came down to me having to pick a side between the Empire and the Stormcloaks...well since the Empire was trying to cut off my head on a chopping block before Alduin showed up, I would say that would sow enough bitterness for me that I would be under Ulfric's banner.

A person would have to be insane, regardless of what race, to side with the Empire after they were going lop your head off and throw you over the hill for no reason whatsoever...your name wasn't on their list...they should have let you go.....you obviously were not someone they were looking for or even scheduled to be executed that day...the fact they just try to carry on through anyways without a moments pause would be enough for me to hate their guts after Helgen.

Lets get a few things straight right off the bat. First, Jurgen was a coward who got mad that he lost, then made up the way of the voice as an answer to why he lost. The divines had nothing to do with this. He says he came up with this on his own, the divines never told him. Second, Kyne is a warrior goddess, Shield thane of Shor. Make no mistake, the thu'um is meant for battle. I know aaaalll about Jurgen, believe me. Ulfric didn't break the way of the voice anyway, its supposed to be used for true need. I argue that using it to rally men to his cause to make Skyrim independent an restore Talos worship is true need. Who are the greybeards to tell anyone how to use the voice gifted by Kyne anyway? And Ulfric made his oath as a kid. The gods likely don't care how you use it. Jurgen only came up with his crackpot theory after he lost.

The divines didn't tell him squat. Even the greybeards say he came up with this on his own, although I have a theory that Paarthurnax is where he got the idea and he just took credit to protect him, and Jurgen added the gods stuff himself.

And the duel wasn't about fairness. Its about strongest. He had the thu'um so why not use it. Torygg knew what he was getting into, as everyone knew he had the thu'um.

The poll answers are a bit obvious.

Do you really think the Thalmor were going to leave Skyrim alone?

Does it even matter? At the end of the day, people are being killed, kidnapped, tortured, temples are being torn down. Either you want to fight or you want to appease the Thalmor and play their political games. The choice is obvious.

Beside the fact that Tullius doesn't make policy, they should have thought of that before signing the WGC, or at the very least after Hammerfell proved it unnecessary. Or let Skyrim go so that at least somewhere, the Thalmor have no sway, and maybe you keep Nords as willing allies instead of bitter and under your boot.

Here, read http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thirsk,_a_History_--_Revised.

Torygg's court mage contradicts you. She says he needed a symbol of the empire that imperial forces could not ignore. He set a trap for the imperial puppet that was a complete checkmate. It was ruthless, but a calculated ruthlessness and brilliant. That's the kind of man you want leading you in a time of war.

Everyone including Torygg says they knew he was going to lose. So obviously, the thu'um wasn't necessary. Ulfric used it for a different reason, then. I'll let you ponder why.

And religious dudes have never been wrong in the history of Nirn or anywhere else...

Oh, I forgot to say on true enemy, I said other. Why? Because as long as the Empire is letting the Thalmor do what they are doing, they're an enemy too. Until that ends, they're both my enemies. Also, on the way of the voice charade:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0003f884

You'd prefer Ulfric be like this guy? Arngeir seems to have forgotten.....

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greybeards#cite_note-Hrothgar-6}

What the heck is true need to them?

Thirsk is a group of skaal outcasts...they don't count towards the general Nordic populace of Skyrim but to the way they set up their own society. So categorizing it as Nord history will make someone think it's relevant to the Nords of skyrim, which it's not.