Go read my thoughts on abuse (you'll find it earlier in this very thread), you'll find that's not my problem. That should be on Ulfric's to do list, if you ask me. I'm purely speaking about their complaints about their quality of life.

And I know Ulfric didn't give the housing to them, and nor did his father. The fact remains that they complain the space isn't nice enough, even though they have had 200 years to come up with money here and there to renovate. And if Ulfric didn't give it to them, why should he have to renovate it for them?

If they pay taxes, as Ms-Busy-Body says they do, then that right there is reason enough why he should renovate the Grey Quarter.

A lot of people seem to be operating under the assumption that the Snow Quarter was 'nice' before it was given to the Dunmer. Easy to blame the Dunmer for the state of it if you think that way, but I don't. The Nords gave them the [censored]test part of the city, just like they gave the Dunmer the worst possible land to settle on in Solstheim. Now, I'm not saying they aren't generous for doing that, they are, but that the state of the place being some how the Dunmer's fault is a notion I find laughable. Nevermind that Windhelm is an ancient city that isn't in the best of shape in other places either.

Both sides are idiots. The Nords expect recompense for doing a good deed when they have recently ignored the Dunmer in favor of their stupid Civil War. The Dunmer won't admit that they just want someone to listen to their issues over the war, and need to get it into their skulls that complaining won't solve anything.

The Dunmer, however, have no legal obligation to prove themselves worthy of being helped by the Nords as they are not actually a part of Skyrim.

My personal opinion is that the issue of the Grey Quarter is both parties responsibilities as neither is DOING ANYTHING to earn the Respect of the other side.

I've always wondered this, and maybe you could answer this. She says that they are taxed, but are we supposed to just believe that she knows about every single Dunmer? Maybe she's being hassled by a corrupt guard. If so, the guard should be sentenced to be beaten to death by the Dunmer. Even if she's completely right, and that's how it goes, it still isn't a good time to renovate. You don't start up house projects when you have no money. Because that's foolish.

About Solsthiem: Didn't they give them the whole island? If I'm right, then it isn't the Nord's fault the land svcks. It got buried by a volcano or something, didn't it? Besides, they seem to be doing alright and they at the very least aren't complaining.

Oh, I understand it probably wasn't pristine. I said something about that earlier I believe. I'm not blaming them for its state. I'm just saying instead of complaining, they should have made renovated their own place over the 200 years they've had it. That's a pretty good amount of time to do something. Maybe they have, I wouldn't know.


Except in your example, your friend just asks for help out of the blue.

Here in Skyrim the situation is a little different. You are asking for better stuff, so he asks you to help in the war.

Maybe they don't support Ulfric because of the way he treats them, or lets his supporters treat them.

Your argument sounds kind of like the argument against immigrants, really. "How dare you be uppity and act like real citizens? We let you come here, you should damn well be thankful for the slum we put you in."

Yet, as far as I know, the Nords are not helping the Dunmer out much thanks to a purely HUMAN matter. The Civil War started out as a fight over religious freedom:

Stormcloaks (which everyone wants the Dunmer to help out with) want to WORSHIP Talos, a HUMAN deity. The Dunmer DO NOT worship the Imperial gods now, so why SHOULD they HELP in a war that has no consequence for them. Make a case for them to help, other than they should pay for what they have or that they need to prove themselves to get more, which is not enough for them.

Ulfric isn't treating them one way or the other. He isn't doing anything but focusing on the war. The Dunmer don't seem to be the only ones unable to catch his ear right now. There's a serial killer on the streets, and he won't even focus on that. He's in total warfare mode. As for his "supporters" treatment, I don't consider any of the ignorant people who hate the Dunmer just to hate, supporters of Ulfric. Because the only thing they are capable of supporting is ignorance. And I think Ulfric should realize that these idiots need to be punished, and harshly. They cause problems for him. Therefore they should get messed up.

Except immigrants aren't getting city districts for free, are they?

Because you are asking for their help.

Here's the track record so far:

Nords give the Dunmer the Grey Quarter. +1 for the Nords.

Dunmer become productive members of Windhelm (this was revealed to me by another member). +1 for the Dunmer.

That means neither side owes the other anything. So, when the Dunmer ask for a favor from the Nords, the Nords are going to ask a favor from them.

And since the Nord's favor is time dependent, it should come first. At least in the eyes of the Nords. And I agree with them.

and yet the DUNMER have no REAL legal obligation to HELP the NORDS fight their war if they won't help them. IF the Nords promise to help the Dunmer fix up the Grey Quarter they MIGHT HELP with the war.

That is how these things work. Make a demand without offering anything, you get nothing as a response. SO, it is STILL both sides' Responsibility when it comes to Grey Quarter.

Yeah, might isn't good enough. They gave them something first. In their eyes, it's time they do them a favor in good faith. Besides, why would they promise the Dunmer something, when all the Dunmer will say is "maybe..."?

Okay, I agree with the first two sentences. That was my point. I completely disagree with your last statement though. It is not the Nords responsibility until the Dunmer do something to make it their responsibility. Until then, it's the Dunmer's problem.

Also, legal obligation? Yeah of course not. Like I said, at this point neither side is obligated either legally, or for any other reason, to help each other. That's why the Quarter is their problem. Because the Nords don't have to help.

None of which makes him sound like an especially good leader.

I'm so confused by this. What would her being hassled by a corrupt guard have to do with Dunmer taxes, and why would you force the Dunmer to execute a Nord guard? That's probably just make race relations worse.


No money because Ulfric's depleted the treasury on his war. I don't think that removes his obligation to better the lives of his subjects, and if the Dunmer are being taxed, he has the same obligation to them as he does the rest of his subjects.


It's a unclear just how much they got. It's a fact that the Dunmer only inhabit the lands covered in ash, while the Nords have settlements in the snowy parts of the island, but I wouldn't have advocated them displacing the Skaal or anything like that. And Solsthiem isn't doing that great until

For all we know, the Dunmer have put work into restoring the Grey Quarter. It might have just been that crappy.

The issue is both sides' responsibility. The Dunmer are not wanting to do anything, but the Nords are not that welcoming right now either. IF both sides drop the macho/bravado and admitted they actually NEED help with their problems, things would get done.

NORDS want help in the Civil War? Offer to HELP the Dunmer.

Dunmer want help with the Grey Quarter? They need drop the selfishness and help the Nords. Nothing is getting done simply by expecting the other side to do something.

Never said he was... Although, he isn't bad. He is in a war that demands his full attention. It isn't his fault he doesn't have a full military staff to do it for him, like Elisif.


I'm saying maybe she isn't actually being taxed, but being muscled into thinking she is. And the second part was more of a joke, although there should be a punishment if such a guard were to exist.



I've never heard of him renovating any part of Windhelm. So they are getting equal treatment.


There should be something to say how much they got. That'd be nice to know. Oh, and

Okay, who are you talking about? Because it's the Imperial woman who gets up in everybody's business that Dean was referring to. She's the one who mentions raising Sardi's taxes, so it's not like a Dunmer is being tricked or anything like that.

And true, he isn't renovating any part of Windhelm, but there is mention that the Grey Quarter isn't patrolled as regularly by the town guard as the rest of the city, so there still isn't equal treatment.

Woops! That was my bad. I had forgotten the race of the person. For some odd reason I thought it was Dunmer. I haven't played in a few months, and that must have slipped me. That or 5:00 AM is too late/early for me to still be up. Just a misunderstanding.

And there is mention of that, but I don't see that in-game. They go back there. There isn't much to patrol there to be honest. Of course they won't be in that part as often as the entire rest of the city.

Listen, we are arguing in circles. There is a fundamental point we disagree on, and I doubt you'll ever come around. Nor will I.

Agree to disagree?