I would think it was fun if you at the begining only where a simple villager
but with time becoming stronger, but the enemies should be strong and
some times even stronger, but at the end you would be an epic hero. But
to reach this epic power should be a challange and should need some skill.

Some players want to be the hero, but don't you think it's more fun if you
will have to fight for it. I love Oblivion (haven't played Morrovind) but i think
the lack of challange and that you are the choosen one is a little bit to much.
I think it's cool to be the "chosen one" but it would be greater if you didn't
know you where the "Choosen one" but later on in the story. It's fun when
nobody is beliving in you and the odds are agianst you, because if you win
you realy are the hero and you feel more proud of it.

But im not complaining about TES they are great games and mabey some
of the best RP's ever made. Just some things i would think was fun to add.

Atleast that's my opinion :biggrin:

Have you played Morrowind? It is a very hard game, tactic is the only way to overcome obstacles most of the time. Later in the game, balance issues showed up though. So I just thought Morrowind had balance issues, aside from that that's exactly what I'm looking for in TES. Hero aspect is just a side product of an optional quest, main quest.

Again, let me restate the obvious, having choices and having freedom are not the same terms to use when discussing this issue semantically. For instance, in the US, I have freedom, but that "freedom" doesn't extend to me being able to become master of all types of medieval mêlée weaponry. Could I try, yes. But I probably don't have the capacity to master those skills, and most people in our world don't. Hence that is an example of a choice that IS available to ANY player in TES. Because that is a choice, and freedom is simply something restricted/imposed by an authority. The type of "choice options" I'm talking about for TES include my ability to become master of all combat arts, if I choose. I don't see the word freedom to describe the same thing as having the option to be the best at anything if I so choose. And yes, before you argue, I realize it is a semantic debate, and that we were basically saying the same thing anyway.

OT: To counter your second point, I would merely state the obvious - Which gives me more choices? Not being able to kill certain bad guys, or being able to kill every last one? Your idea of limiting the player to not be able to take on some foes is MORE limiting of choices than if you let the player choose to beat them or not. By your logic, in the KotN DLC, we would not have been able to defeat Umaril at all, and we would simply be told "If you fight him, you'll lose". Would you rather have been told that, and just had the quest end? Then who would face him, if not you, the player? You think an NPC should take over from there or something?

Also, I really don't get your last sentence. First off, the game NEVER ends unless you delete your save. Secondly, How does the concept of knowing there exists some bad dude out there I can't beat help me play a role in any way? What if I want to play the role of the unstoppable hero?

My idea: The system is fine as it is. If you or I want to RP that we can't beat someone, then fine, we can do so. But if either of us (playing our own games, mind you) wants to go defeat him, we should be able to train our skills up, practice, and load up with supplies to take on the epic quest of owning said bad dude. That is completely fair to both your play style and mine. Not to mention we can do the opposite - You can be the unstoppable hero, and I can RP not being able to win against bad-ass enemies. IF WE SO CHOOSE.

Also, side note: Something I was just reminded of. There are characters, enemies, and beings throughout the TES world that we can't beat in combat. i.e. Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon, The Nine Divines, etc. If there ever comes a special time in any TES game where we can weaken, banish, or subvert the power of any of these types of beings, the hero can take it. That's how the MQ's have always gone, pretty much. So yes, obviously, we shouldn't be able to rule the universe. But we should be able to kick the ass of all but the most powerful beings in the TES universe according to our abilities we've worked on, and the fact that we are typically a prophesied "super" hero.

The choice of which NPCs to make nigh unbeatable is no doubt extremely delicate.

However, the difference between you asking me to pretend I can't beat Mr. Ancient Lich or me asking you to pretend that you did, is not very big in my opinion. In the end, you're effectively asking me to give up exactly on that which I seek: more immersion. Perhaps I'm just not a person with a great imagination, so this seems a lot more like an effort to me than to you?

Anyway, keep in mind that this immersion not only comes from having an NPC that could kill you in one hit or you successfully pretending that it could. Because just dying to some seemingly normal appearing mob, without understanding why it may have been so strong in the first place is highly irritating and not very immersive at all. The difficulty slider in TES games (as mentioned by someone else earlier) is on some occasions a good help but still far from a solution at all.

It would require a bit effort from the developers (or modders, if we're going that route) as well - to create these special enemies with more depth and give background information. Oblivion in particular had a high tendency to make nameless, unimportant trash mobs. As an example again, lichs weren't impressive ancient masters of magic - they were just another type of cannonfodder.

As for the example NPCs:

I have to admit I never played Shivering Isles for more than a few hours. In fact I never even met Sheogorath, I guess I was too busy with my 200 other mods. :biggrin:
From what I'Ve heared he is roughly what I'm looking for, even though his methods (unpreventable falling to death instantkill?) are pretty lacking.

Umaril is an interesting example. Yet he comes with the credible background that I'm asking for and you get holy equipment, companions to fight him with and even some kind of help from the gods (or my memory is playing tricks on me - it's been too long), which all put this experience in a better scale.
However he's pretty unavoidable, seeing that it's a DLC which you have to pay for - so he would be a poor choice, in particular because he's evil and people will naturally prefer happy endings after playing a game or watching a movie.

I don't see much of a way around making these special enemies completely out of the way and initially non-hostile (though easily provoked) to the player. This should never be a challenge which is imposed on the player, and which he has to swallow down with his pride. Fighting these NPCs is the kind of trouble he has to willingly put himself into. (masochistic or plain suicidal, too greedy or curiosity killed the cat)

Why not go and play Demon Souls?

Instead of trying to mess up a good franchise like TES by making it what it is not?

I like the sense of progression...

I LIKE TO LEVEL UP AND BECOME STRONGER

At the end of my game I want to see the results of my efforts. I can defeat enemies I once could not touch.


In my opinion this idea of dodging and hiding your way through a game is absolute rubbish

Good points, all around. For the most part, I do agree with you, Yun. The only issue I even have with the concept you seem to suggest Bethesda should be implementing is that it isn't the greatest number of choices for the player. Is it more immersive? I suppose so, yes. But again, I can see compromise here. Bethesda can add enemies that are the type you want to see, AND still let me become a pwnage machine and kill all but those most powerful opponents. I firmly believe we SHOULD have enemies and/or powerful neutral beings that we cannot beat. That's a given. But, I also want to have an enormous number of weak to super-strong enemies in the game that I can beat with enough practice and skill. Basically, I want them to add badass bosses, but I also want a few quests where I have to run away or otherwise subvert the power of my enemy and then get away (i.e. banishment, weakening, or escaping from the enemy).

I just think there should be a simple balance between what you want for the immersion factor, and what I or any other player wants in terms of enemies we can eventually overcome.

As for those examples, Umaril is an excellent choice, because you don't have to face him. Ever. You don't even have to get KotN. But if you do want to complete the quest, you have to prove you are the reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake to beat Umaril. That seems like a pretty fair amount of questing and work (not to mention divine prophecy) for you to do just to be able to take him on. I really liked the KotN quest line and I found it to be balanced between my powerful PC, and the requirements of the quest. For instance, you could not beat him without wearing all the Crusader gear, and you can't follow him to the spirit world unless you cast the Blessing of Talos spell that you are given by the gods. I'd say that's pretty limiting, because imagine if you could just go to Garlas Malatar before doing the quest and fight Umaril - You would get pwned. But if you do everything required, you at least have a chance. THAT is how badass enemies should be handled IMO. Perhaps Bethesda should allow you to actually attempt to face badass enemies before you do the proper quest stuff, so that you can see for yourself that you would get owned. Then, it will stick in your mind as "more immersive" because you know for a fact that your PC couldn't win on his/her own. So, how does that sound?

Also, Sheogorath? He's I'venot aninstant kill enemy, but if you wanna fight, you learn why you should be happy he's an ally. If you hit him, you die. Simple. I'd say that "puts you inwould your place" like you seem to be asking for.

I agree with some points.

I like the way of leveling and becoming stronger, but sometimes there should be a challange so you will have to use tactics and skills.

Sometimes you mabey would need to hide or run but later on, when your'e stronger you will be able to defeat the threat that forced you to flee with a smile on your face.

Someone always has to win its natural. If I absolutley can't be the one winning in the game someone is pre destined to be stronger than me always. thats unreal and annoying. I Dont see the point of a scenario where I can't win no matter what. :brokencomputer: :flamethrower:

Agreed :turtle:

Ok, Bethesda has done great on the whole "underdog thing" with Fallout 3 and NV at a low level, I stayed away from the deathclaw quarry cuz my 10mm pistol didnt do [censored] to them and one claw swipe would kill me. Look at Mournhold and Bloodmoon in Morrowind, those were made for higher level characters. You wouldnt do [censored] up there fresh outta the Imperial Census. Bethesda took a big step back on making games a challenge with OB, a problem they seem to have fixed with Fallout. Im a super high level in fallout and cazadores still inspire fear to me cuz one hit to boone on hard core and their poison wastes him away to nothing. The story revolves around you killing dragons so the "average Joe" thing doesnt exactly work here. You gotta be pretty badass to take down a dragon. Youre not going to be unstoppable, its going to be a challenge but not just anyone can do what you do. So if being special ruffles your feathers, play a different game. You are Skyrims only hope, albeit a very small one, but expect some people to give a [censored] when you take down the dragon who has been terrorizing their town. If youre that worried about the game being a challenge, max out the difficulty, play hardcoe mode and if its still too easy for your superior gaming abilities, play with your eyes closed

What is it with people and reading?

No one has asked for any changes to the main quest. Just give us OTHER OPTIONS. You can run around bashing monsters with your bang-bang all you like, no one is asking to remove anything, merely add on.

Well, because I'm so amazing, good looking, and awesome in real life, I think that it would be quite refreshing to have an RPG where I play an average person. Skyrim should implement a welfare system so that my character can claim benefits when he/she leaves prison. This would include housing benefit for my council shack. I can't wait for this game. :celebration:

I can understand what you are saying. Just because you are destined to be a great hero doesn't mean that you are the best.

nice demonstration of your intelect...

Remember http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Gaenor

Yeah, he was really annoying and not fun to fight. I understand what you're saying, and I would like to see some really challenging enemies in the game, but when their only purpose is to be nearly impossible to defeat, it's not fun.

Problem i find is if i'm not the most powerful cant someone else do it.