I read the first few paragraphs and that was it. I agree with you that the game shouldn't just be about improving skills and becoming the biggest badass, BUT there's one thing you should realize.

These games are part of a series called The Elder Scrolls. Take a step back and look in the top left corner of the forum. It says The Elder Scrolls. The protagonist we play in all these games ARE the heros that have been prophesied to come. There are other heros in the games, but your character is THE hero.

They did already have one NPC that you can't beat (Sheogorath). I wouldn't mind it if occasionally you could get attacked by three dragons and have no choice but to run for it. Or if an NPC who's said to be over a thousand years old would have skill levels that are higher than the player can attain (unless you actually play that long I guess).

That's true, though the game doesn't always give you that many options for that, but that's still not being an average person, at the end, you'll still be stronger than everyone else, just that you use said strength for a less noble purpose.



Actually, I seem to recall taking Dagoth Ur head on, I just had to seperate him from the source of his power first. Even so, I was still the one who defeated Dagoth Ur, no one else was able to do it, and that's the key, really, it's about doing what no one else could do, I did that in Morrowind, and arguably, I did it in Oblivion too, sure, Martin may have been the heir to the Septim throne, but I never saw him going into Oblivion itself, to close the gates, and the average city guardsmen would rarely last long against the Daedra, in the end, I was still doing important things, it's just that Martin was the one who got the credit for stoping Mehrunes Dagon at the end.

And I've criticized the very aspect of Oblivion's plot you mentioned though not JUST because I didn't get to fight Mehrunes Dagon personally, it's also because i's kind of unsatisfying that after all the trouble I went through to get there, it was a huge deus ex machina that saves the day.



When a game is based on the premise of "Do whatever you want." One might argue that should also entail being able to kill whoever you want too, which means any character you can't hope to defeat conflicts with that premise, though I'm not as sensitive to that as others can be, I don't mind the existence of some unkillable characters in the game if they're unkillable because it would break the game for them to die, still, if such characters exist, they should be ones that don't exist for the sake of being defeated. If a certain character is an enemy, you should be able to kill that character, it shouldn't be easy, but it should be possible.

Besides, when you introduce a character stronger than the player, it creates a plothole, as I am inclined to ask, why do I have to fight Alduin? Why can't it be this guy, since he's so clearly stronger than me? Now, some stories might adress this question by saying that while there are people stronger, the hero has some special ability or quality that makes him the only one able to do what must be done to succeed, and maybe that's the case in Skyrim, but we don't know that. Prophecies aside, the only clear reason why you would have to be the one to stop Alduin, aside from because the plot says so, is because your stronger than other people.

And reading your initial post, that's not really the first impression I got, it sounded more to me like you want to play the game as some average, every day person who is just content to go about everyday life and never does anything particularly impressive, which is NOT how I want to play the game at all.



On that, I agree, though I feel it's a subject for another discussion.



That is, of course, a good point, I certainly don't mind having options to do things I don't want to do as long as it doesn't interfere with me doing what I want to so, I was just pointing out that the option to be a trader is not really something I'm interested in, and if I can't do it in the game, it's no big loss to me.



Since I've never used that mod, it's not really a very helpful example.

i dont think this dude knows wich dude his dudes playin :wink_smile:

im seeing some posts that are mixing ideas up. it needs to be specified whether this is about being able to walk over your enemies just waving your sword around and barely getting scratched or about whether your character becomes famous in the game world. i dont mind if my character becomes famous and it makes sense since you kill dragons for a living. however, i do mind making the game mind numblingly dull and boring by having a character that is way overpowered compared to enemies. its just tedious and dull and forces me to go out of my way to avoid certain spells or weapons and wear lower level armor which is a svcky way to have to play a game.

Choice. Potential. Balance.

Going through main quest to become a great hero is choice.

We start the game as an ordinary person who has great potential. Maxing skills to 100, I see it as a bug but it may very well be a feature. Potential to become a demigod being the feature of Elder Scrolls' the chosen one. Morrowind after a certain point becoming unbalanced was about balance. The game needed some limitations and someone/thing slightly better than a demigod PC on later levels.

Now with Skyrim, it is not skills that increase levels but levels increase skills. Skills are now represented in gameplay perks which we select in level-ups. The level 50 soft cap will prevent getting 100 from each skill without artificially putting limits to skills themselves. Also main quest is a mean to collect dragon shouts which will give us the real POWER and since this is tied to main quest, it is subject to choice.

Ingenious!

Everything about the game is pointing a well balanced gameplay(defense oriented deadlier combat, tactical wielding, slow powerful bows, limited FT)... I think it will be amazing.

This was a very easy thing to fix in Oblivion. Twenty seconds of downloading and ten seconds of installing and you can find yourself with TIE installed and BANG; problem solved (and that is only one of many ways to do this).

I've got little doubt that there will be mods to fix this in Skyrim as well.

Yeah, that is true. I initially meant to adress both issues from the same perspective but mingled them up. Doesn't matter as I'm still in the process of making up my mind on this as well. I meant to state that the player should be an imperfect (but still great) hero - implemented for example by having quests than can be failed or NPCs that are still above your league.

And that doesn't have to contradict with the main story at all.
After all it's not said that you're going to kill Alduin - perhaps simply foiling his plan in some other way is enough. You don't have to be stronger than a uber-dragon or god for that.
Also, you're supposed to be some kind of dragonhunter after all, which makes you particularly effective against dragons, but perhaps not as effective against some other type of enemies. Take rock, paper and scissors as a very simplified example? As to why these NPCs don't rescue the world themselves - well, how about they simply don't care? They'd rather spend their time honing their skills than being a showoff like the player. Or they don't know about the issue at hand. I can't go into further speculation as we know too little about the actual story in Skyrim, but the psychology of people is deep enough to make up some reasons.

I prefer to play games where you're 'just a person' rather than 'destined/fated hero.' It's a bit more meaningful and frankly, the 'destiny' plot is overused. In reality, the game world isn't meant to be so forgiving. In Morrowind, during some point in the game, you would find out that you weren't the only person who might be the Nerevar reborn. There were quite a few. They all died.

There should be characters that are far more powerful than the PC then. For instance, Divayth Fyr. He's a 4000 year old sorcerer and he's certainly not feeble, as he lounges around his home in full daedric armor. He was not only unafraid of Corprus, he cured it - where the Tribunal were unable even after tapping the Heart's power.

I think characters like that shouldn't go down easily, if at all.

That said, it's still an RPG. I can't think of an RPG that didn't try to tell a story about a hero. I mean, they could create "Sim Skyrim Resident" if they wanted to, but it probably wouldn't sell as well. So I think the 'hero complex' of the user base is rather natural. Despite that, I hope that combat AI is good and that most people here experience a nice 'getting your head handed to you' moment during their early Skyrim experience. And I hope they have the good nature to smile and appreciate the difficulty or intelligence rather than freak out because they lost a fight. Nobody likes the "How dare you play Terran against me!" hissy fits.

Sounds like a good idea, because it seems there's a bit of uncertainty as to what is actually being discussed here. I posted based on my own interpretation of what the subject was about, but it's certainly possible that I may have misunderstood.



It's true that it hasn't been said that we'll kill Alduin, it also hasn't been said that we won't, though. Myself, I think we'll have to FIGHT him, does that mean we'll kill him? I don't know, maybe the goal is to banish him, or through some other means stop him from destroying the world. Whatever the case, we don't know how the player will have to handle Alduin, so really, I guess we can only say it's not relevent here one way or another, it just seems that after I've come back from slaying dragons and saving the world, it would be kind of unsatisfying to be beaten by a mere mortal.



Actually, skills still increase allowing you to level up, and all that we've heard suggests that you can still maximize all skills by the end of the game, but the addition of perks adds another way for players to increase their abilities and specialize their characters, and which it seems may possibly have a more major impact than skills, and with PERKS, it seems you can't choose all of them with one character. So even if all characters end up with 100 in all skills, their perk trees may still be different, and that's good. because characters still end up being specialized, and this is done without limiting the player more than I feel is reasonable.



Maybe it's just that I interpreted it differently, but I actually found that reinforced the feeling of being the chosen hero, because like you said, those people tried to fulfill the prophecies, but they all failed, yet in the end, I succeeded, why? Because I'm special, I had something they didn't, so I could succeed where they failed, in a way, knowing that others have tried to do what I am doing, yet failed, makes my ultimate success seem that much more epic, in theory, anyway.



Oh don't worry, I want to be challenged too, as I've said before, being a hero is boring if there's no challenge in it, I just want to be rewarded for overcoming challenges, and feel like I accomplished something, I may start out with nothing, but I have no desire to finish the same way.

How so? Jiggalag and Sheogorath were one and the same. You beat Jiggalag, you become Sheogorath.

Well that's an interesting interpretation of the Emperor. He seemed more resigned/content with his fate, to me.


---------
...but, anyway. All the discussion of Fate/Chance/Choice, leads me to one thought:


Would you kindly go kill that dragon? :rofl:

I somewhat agree.

The main quest should, obviously, be epic. But what reasoning does this have to eliminate any other methods of playing the game? The Elder Scrolls tell of the main quests only. The Elder Scrolls never tell that the Nerevarine was Telvanni. Or that the CoC was in the Fighter's Guild. Or that any of the heroes were a Dunmer/Argonian/insert as appropriate.

The Elder Scrolls don't tell us that the hero has to be overly epic and dramatic in every sense of his life. They can tell of a simple guard who saves the world due to a certain series of events.

TES is all about choices. You can complete the main quest and be a hero--or not. You can join factions (some of which are evil)--or not. You can run errands for random strangers--or not. You can use powerful weapons and magical abilities--or not. I suppose Skyrim could be different, but it seems really unlikely to me. If you want to play someone ordinary, do the Skyrim equivalent of losing the amulet or package for Caius Cosades at the bottom of your pack and do ordinary things.

I prefer the status of all-powerful hero. But apparently I just have a god complex that can only be satisfied through video games.

Well, the premise is such, the game mechanics are such... I guess you don't have to like the premise or the mechanics, but that's the way this game is. I guess you do not need to advance in the game, just remain at the same level with the same equipment, but if you want to advance in the story, sorry, you will be hero.

I was thinking of earlier when you attack him and he teleports you to instant doom. But you're right; you do get to beat him after he transforms.

Skyrim is a balance between two opposing extremes... both need to be taken into account when making a game.

1- Skyrim is about making your own brand of changes to a world. So the more power you have, the more you can affect such changes!
2- Skyrim doesn't want to hand everything to you on a silver platter, it wants you to work for what you get... So the more threats (Which could possibly kill you) you need to take into account, the more satisfying overcoming them is.

This equation leads, inevitably to a game which power can be surely gained... but never so much power that you are beyond all threats.

I agree that being a different character is the underlying premise of a Role Playing Game. As such, if the game is designed correctly, we can be any kind of character we want. From Good to Evil, from a Specialist to a Jack of All Trades, from a bad ass to a wimp. It is all in how we roll and develop, or not develop, our characters.

Just give me a game where I can make who I want to be the hero. And, if they are the Super Hero of my fantasies, so be it. If they are the average Joe from next door that stubs his toes getting the paper, so be that too.

I just sig'd this. Thanks!

Fixed my quote to atribute it properly to you.

It's a game. I don't want my character's power to be realistic in relation to the average person of the game world.

Actually, I do want most obstacles out of your reach to be only a time delay. It feels good once you finally train up to the level you've been trying so hard to kill that minotaur guarding the giant treasure. But, It does not feel good to know that, you can't kill that minotaur, you will never be able to be as powerful as him.

While it is not a given in a RPG that you train to be the most powerful hero ever or that you would be able to overcome any obstacle, with enough time. It is a staple of the Elder Scrolls.

Yeah, I've always found the best way to save the world is not to start the main quest.

Look fellow TES players....

All Im saying is I want to roleplay a heroes sidekick. You know, tidy up the house and such while he goes out solving quests. Make sure he always has the equipment he needs, etc. I have no urge to be THAT hero, I just want to be close enough to see him in action.

Kind like a Pinky and the Brain set up. I want to be Pinky.