Making an undefeatable opponent defeats the purpose of making it your job to complete the main quest. No matter how selfish this undefeatable enemy is, they will still do what you aren't powerful enough to do if it has bad implications for them.

Let me tell you about a game called Spore; specifically the creature stage: In the creature stage, there are things known as "epic creatures" which are gigantic creatures with 1000 hitpoints, a native regeneration ability and enough damage to kill any creature not purpose-built for killing an epic in one hit. Getting within its attack range is not a feasible means of attack and if it can attack at range then your creature may as well just drown itself because you're not going to kill it. Ever.

But do you want to know the good thing about it? It's still accomplishable, and it can not be done alone (well, on a technicality it can, but only if you can attack at range, have at least half an hour that you can't find anything better to do with and if the epic itself is very slow). Even when you do have a group of other creatures with you, it will still involve running by and sacrificing nearby nests of other creatures to keep it distracted long enough for you to create some distance between your group and it and if you die then by the time you assemble another group and find it again it will be back at full hitpoints, and you will not be any stronger. In fact if your previous group died, chances are you sacrificed the strongest non-hostile creatures at your disposal, the only other ones you could not defeat alone, never to see them again, therefore making your group weaker as you will have to fall back on creatures you could defeat.

So allow me to make a better suggestion:

Opponents who are meant to be faced with a group. Ones who a player will, inevitably, have to flee from upon the first encounter, but should, shortly before the end of the main quest, be ready to face them and have a group willing to help them do so.

Alduin, if you fight him, should be fought alone, with some divine power lent to you so that you can do so which fades after you defeat Alduin or something like that, just so for once you can defeat the god at the end of the game yourself but still not be a god yourself.

As for the demands to fight multiple dragons, I'm sure that some of those who suggested it did so because they might be thinking "at some stage I will be able to kill dragons. I shouldn't end up being able to kill ten in a row because rather than all chase me at once they decided to form an orderly line and fight me one-by-one". In Fallout 3, I needed to enlist some aid in order to get into Vault 81 because most of the enemies inside were super mutant overlords with tri-beam laser rifles and more than once I'd find myself fighting at least two at the same time. I think it stands to reason that sometimes dragons should attack in large enough numbers if need be to force you to flee.

Whats the point in creating just "another" civilian.
The point of this game is to be a force to be reckoned with. To become a "hero". Being just another person is more MMO rather than this sort of RPG.

heh i was thinking the exact same thoughts. Actualy i was sortof wondering if i could send them a pic of myself to render the features for me because they never make the musculature quite big enough or the angle of my squarly cut manly jaw. (although i see from the screenshots that they are really trying)

on TOPIC: i think the great thing about these games is that you can generaly stay just an average joe. but on the other hand i think that saying that if someone wants to be a goodlike smiting machine in a video game is wrong and disturbing is way to harsh a judgement especialy assuming that most people on here can distinguish real life and fantasy.

and its not like theres any stories out there that are like ok joe you just saved the world thanx k bai. your gonna end up with a title of some sort and some super loot as a thanx .

I try to stay away from the God mentality, so my character just stays at home and gets yelled at by his mom to go outside all day.

besides the obvious boring gameplay that associated with being OP. there is also the issue of making sense in game. if im going up against a lich that is over 2000 years old he should school my ass in magic even if im a pure mage character. remember that you character levels up and learns things in a matter of in game months. unless your character has an IQ of 200 or more there is no way your going to match the learning, experience and abilities of someone/thing that has been casting spells for centuries. you should have to use companions for that type of situation. i will also be very disappointed if i take out a assumedly larger armored dragon that is exponentially bigger than me single handedly with just an axe. that is just [censored]. i dont mind being more powerful than the typical bad guy knight or wizard but there are things in tamriel much older and more powerful than a mere mortal even with a prophecy. as someone mentioned earlier, you werent the only neverine to exist.......just happened to be the one that succeeded.

Neverine was the name given to some one who claims to be the reincarnation of nerevar. Others have claimed to be nerevar reborn (thus they were labeled nerevarine) but only one actually was (the player character). In other words many probably claimed to be the son of God but there was only one jesus christ.

I understand what you're saying in regards to difficulty but tes games are about your character growing into a powerhouse. Becoming the hero of cyrodil, defeating a daedric prince, killing a GOD (or three depending on how you played morrowind and the expansions). You will be able to kill dragons by yourself. And liches.

I thought that was called real life?

I totally agree with the OP. It's nice to be the hero but being unstoppable takes away the fun, at least to me. I like to pretend that I walk into a cave and I know I'm a badass but I'm still going to be in danger when I'm outnumbered 5 to 1. It's more fun to have the world feel real and that you can be killed if you misstep against a few enemies instead of being able to annihilate and entire city instantly.

Duh.

Immersion = Real Life

Interesting topic and I apologise for only skimming the first page.

I'm at the point in my gaming where the whole 'I'm the hero and can take on anyone and anything' is kind of a cliché. I fully accept that a lot of people enjoy this and have no issues if that how the game turns out but I'm interested in a change.

I have good memories of one of the quests in Oblivion (Kvatch I think) where I had a few soldiers fighting with me, they died horribly quickly and I had to do it all myself but I liked the concept of needing AI support, fighting alongside other people in the world rather than just doing everything for them. With that in mind I'm very interested to see how enjoyable the game would be if the player character was more ordinary (for want of a better term) for the entire game. No killing dragons single-handedly or clearing out 20 bandits by yourself, unless you're skilled enough to pick them off one at a time. If you're up against a powerful enemy or a large group you'll need support.

I'm quite looking forward to seeing what can be done with the mod tools.

Ok, for the record, since you're like the 3rd or 4th person to say something is "cliché" in this thread, I have to say something.

People who use the term "cliché" are the typical d-bags of the world who like to think they are the "special" intelligent ones because their teachers said they were really insightful in an Honors English class. To understand why this is so, let me give you an example of a typical usage by said d-bags -

"A romantic comedy? Another love story? That is SO clichéd to death" / "Good vs. Evil is just an old cliché from our history, it shouldn't be used so much in books/movies/video games/etc." / "TES is made of clichés, since you're always the hero who saves the world and now you're going to fight dragons. So cliché"

Those are just as stupid as these - "OMG! It's raining outside! That is so clichéd, just because I'm in Seattle doesn't mean it should be raining" / "OMG! You're getting married to your High School sweetheart!? So clichéd. Get some skill, noob." / "OMG! The US is involving itself in another foreign war? So clichéd. You would have thought we would have stopped that nonsense after WWI. We should totally just never do anything like that again, because it's been done to death."

Point being: Clichés in media exist because clichés exist in real life. They're called many names - patterns, stereotypes, history repeating itself, common occurrences, normal behavior, etc. Saying something is a cliché is simply stating that something has been done more than once, or that it is too similar to something that's been done before. It has an entirely neutral connotation in reality, but people wield it like an insult when they want to disagree with almost anything.

Just a horrible, horrible word that should die. And to those that like to use it, perhaps you should read history, get out more, gain life experience, and generally just stop being d-bags. If you want something dramatic and different that will surprise everyone with it's uniqueness, I challenge you to come up with it yourself. Then, if failing that, just accept the world and how it works, or just go hide like a recluse. But please stop bothering normal people with your coffee shop emo, epic-poem-about-styrofoam-cups-ruining-our-world BS.

/end justified rant

Agreed with clichè being tossed around a bit indiscriminately, though I wouldn't put it so eloquently and, if I may, incisively.

On-topic, those are games about rising from nothing into greatness. You may call a clichè, I call it a staple, and a fundamental one. This is not a life simulator. You may engage it as if it were, but it's not the basics of the game. It has a beggining and and end, both far from your birth and death. THis is not a compendium about someone's life. It's a tale. Barely his tale, even. It's a tale of his achievements, his deeds.

They created this big world and they want it to evolve through your hands. Videogames are about input and reflex. You press a button, something happens. In a small scale, you may toss a ball back, in a medium scale, you may press a bunch of buttons and reach the end of a level. In as huge a scale as in any Elder Scrolls game, you have a reflection on the game world. You make a difference. Heroism is not a syndrome or something to avoid, it's the literary representation of both making a difference, leading to change, a natural path(though Zeno and Parmenides may disagree), while doing so towards the greater good, or the Good, however you put it.

If I want to be indifferent, I'd sit on a bench in a park and think about reality until the day passed me by. I want to make a difference in those little virtual worlds I'm tossed in.

[sarcasm]That's such a cliche thing to say.[/sarcasm]

I kind of like starting out m TES games by doing a whole helluva lot o' crap not related to the main quest. As I play I slowly over the years grow into an adventurer and hero. It dosnt just happen over night.

WHY THE HERO'S JOURNEY IS ABSOLUTELY VITAL

The concept of the Hero's Journey is the most important, and most rewritten story ever told by human beings. From Homer's Odyssey to The Lord of the Rings, almost all myth is absolutely centred around the idea of the Hero's Journey - it is it's most integral part. The reason it is so important is because it tells the story of us as human beings; as a species, and as individuals - our search for happiness, satisfaction, technological advancement, spiritual enlightenment, true love - whatever it may be - all of these can be reduced to the idea of a journey, of accomplishment, of satisfaction.
As such, it is absolutely VITAL that TES, a series that deals almost exclusively with the nature of myth, also centres around this idea. If it didn't, I doubt very much it would have become as popular as it is.

To those who wish to play mundane characters, I say to you - just don't do any quests.
Leave those high and haughty tasks to us heroes, yeah?

First off, thanks. I'll take that as a compliment.

OT: That has got to be the most perfect explanation of video game stories I've ever seen. THAT is what TES is for. When I want to go play a game in which I become a philosopher and sit on a bench thinking about what great stuff other people have accomplished and how it's cool and awesome, I'll probably kill myself. Video games are about DOING, not simply existing in a world where others make the changes. By some of these people's suggestions, I'd say they'd have been happier if Frodo had just said "[censored] it" and stayed at home to smoke his pipe. Thank God for Tolkien.

Hell, even the Sims lets you do some things that you can't do in real life. But damn if it isn't a ridiculously mundane and pathetic way to role-play. At least it's a better game for those that just can't stand the "clichéd" TES series.

EDIT: @Nightbeat - :thumbsup: Agreed.
@sockola - Ditto.

:banghead: This
:banghead: is
:banghead: NOT
:banghead: about
:banghead: playing
:banghead: a
:banghead: boring
:banghead: peasant

I was only asking to introduce a few concepts of imperfection to the game.
Because being invincible and perfect is BORING.
Do people even read the posts or just pretend they have read what they wanted to read?

I'll kindly ask you to look at my very first post, Yun. It gives a valid point and is not critical. Also, people posting here get your point, they just don't agree with it at all. Don't worry about it. It happens. Not to mention there are some other posters that aggravated the discussion by being hyper defensive of their opinions. That caused a backlash at some ideas that are not exactly the same as what you said. So just take another look and you'll see the issue that's really being discussed NOW.

Then maybe you won't have to bang your head against the wall every time you say a word. That must hurt.

*Some* people posting here do NOT get my point. I ask to make the hero less of a godly being and people automatically assume that would mean being an unimportant peasant. Although I don't care if that option is there for those who would like it, I have to say that I would find that highly boring as well and thus take a bit of offense if people call this lame and ascribe this to be what I wish for.

You will have to assume in fair goodwill that I didn't create this topic to bathe in approval and acclaim. I was pretty much expecting a lot of defensive positions from people, though I did not expect the uncivilised manner it was occasionally expressed in.

Either way, I'm only asking that people stop putting words in my mouth.

Sorry Yun...


I think you need to look for another game to play because TES will not give you the pedestrian adventure you are looking for.


The TES games did not become as popular as they are today by following your formula. That is just the reality.

People want to be heroes and in a fantasy realm like TES they want to transcend what they could ever possibly become in a real scenario.

TES is that type of game. It is about epic adventures, magical adversaries, dragon breaks, transcending mortality. In shivering isles the PC becomes a god, and look how popular that expansion was...


Sorry Yun...TES is not your kind of game. Getting kicked around and cowering all over the place is not what fans are looking for.


Ask for something better that to turn the games into something they are not

Isn't this one of those discussions which gets killed by "ohai multiple difficulties" comments? Hrm hrm. Tweak it up to the hardest, you get much much more fragile. Keep at at normal for, well, normal elder scrolls experiences? Set to easy for nigh-on-god-mode.

Wanting to improve oneself, in order to save the world you live in - is not the same thing as "wanting to call attention to yourself"

The entire premise is flawed.

Lmao. I liked the cowering all over the place part.

Yeah, that one's led to some annoying things in the past. The whole "good vs evil is shallow/boring/etc. We need a more realistic setting, that's all shades of gray!" thing..... like, when I was in college, I joined a D&D group. And people were like "bah, good-n-evil/etc was for when we were kids. We're advltS now, we need gray! Ambiguity!". Game only lasted two sessions, because "all the characters should have their own deep motivations" led to the amoral thief stealing all our stuff and killing us in our sleep...... :facepalm:

Yeah, "gray" can be good for a story, when it's done for a reason. But just throwing it in because "good vs evil is a cliche!"...... meh.


------

Hero vs. Protagonist.

Question for the "I don't want to be the Hero" crowd..... you do still want to be the protagonist - the center & driving force of the story - right?

Ugh. This is going no where.

Why doesnt the OP just post his ideas for how to improve the game. Then, we will take turns picking it apart/agreeing/fighting with people who disagree/posting funny comments.

There seems to be so much confusion about what this topic is even about. So Yun, end the back and forth bickering and give some ideas as to improve whatever it is your complaining about.

I can see the point and am agree with you; it's not about OMG I'M SURRENDER BY RATS!!! NEITHER THE CHAMPION OF OBLIVION COULD OUTSTAND THIS!!!11, it's about a little of plausibility; even Conan faced challenges :tongue:

Where's the fun on looting a castle if none can detect you no matter what you do? "Ey, I'm sneaking a fully-guarded courtyard at daylight but, since I have 99 in sneak no one can see me!"
Where's the challenge on killing in three hits, but be able to almos sleep when six minotaurs are smashing your brains out without almost damaging you?
Where's the inmersion when you can wipe an enterely village with a single fireball-spell, but then some shepherd ask you to bring him some towels from his brother's hut?

It's just some plausibility, as said before. Being able to lead every single faction in game is not only absurd, but senseless, becoming the INMORTAL GOD OF WAR seems to be boring if there isn't any challenge to face.

Want to be the best in all ever in Skyrim? Then hit the console and cheat; where's the point on that?