So, my husband and I were talking about the Daedra, specifically, Sheogorath. We were both a little bummed about his appearance in Skyrim (no spoilers). But it got me thinking about the Prince of Madness, the Greymarch, a/nd the denizens of Shivering Isles.

This came up because of threads in Skyrim GD that debated whether or not that Sheogorath was COC, aka your old Oblivion character, and that's not so much what I came to bring up, it's just what got me thinking about the whole thing. I wanted to point out that, Sheogorath isn't just a person - he's a realm. He manifests as a person.

As Sheogorath began to transform into Jyggalag, Shivering Isles changed to reflect that. His citizens took on the mantles of the Priests of Order. Because they are part of Sheogorath and reflect his will. But he hated the harm that the transformation caused his people. His love for them, their flaws, their art and destructive creativity was so vast that he made the ultimate sacrifice for them. He severed himself from his realm.

When Sheogorath shifted his mantle to you he became Jyggalag forever, but saved his realm and people as his last act of madness.

Which is pretty heroic and noble for a so-called "bad" daedric prince. I made me see him in a new light and respect him as more than just a cool dude with funny dialogue. Thoughts?

Huh, this is actually quite noble, and he's a daedra, it might not have happened though

Don't have the link, but Lady Nerevar posted on the lore forum at one point a lengthy explanation of the CoC's mantling. To sum up a basic part of what I can remember, the CoC was not the first, with Arden-Sul mantling Sheogorath long before you did.

Some of his dialogue kind of hints to that if taken literally, I've noticed. "I've been waiting for you, or someone like you, or someone other than you, for quite some time now."

With Sheogorath nobly sacrificing himself, Sheogorath did not sacrifice a part of his sphere in any of these mantling processes, but Arden-Sul and the CoC simply became Sheogorath. You are Sheogorath, you are his sphere, you are madness embodied, you are the realm of madness and all things in it. Any former identity is slowly obliterated as you become Sheogorath and nothing else. Presumably, following the cycle of Arden-Sul, the Greymarch will happen again at the end of the 4th Era right before the 5th, where you become Jyggalag and slaughter your entire realm, forced to rebuild after it's all done. Again.

It was my impression (my own, so not linked specifically to lore) that you were breaking that very cycle by doing this. And that Jyggalag then becomes separate and distinct from Sheogorath.

I agree CoC becomes/embodies SI after the all-consuming process.

So many believers.

Sheogorath is a great prankster, but his deceits are shallow, and easily seen through, unless one is gullible. And everybody is gullible. Cheese for everyone!

Does no one notice that the End of the World prank, having worked great in Borderwatch, is now foisted on a grander scale? Do we not see that the Shivering Isles are made of butterflies and a Daedric Wink?

Show me your grand Daedric Power, Champion! Show me your world-changing Sheogorath Power! Let's see you make a single burning dog fall from your Shivering Isles sky!

Yeah, I thought as much.

When you get any powers in SI, you're explicitly told they are part of the Shivering Isles, and will only work there. But you do get that geographically-restricted power and can use it there. Nobody told you how to do the burning dogs trick, but you can still do some of the summons whenever you visit.

When Sheo realizes that he's about to do his regular Jyggy thing and destroy everything, he parks his powers on the player, so that he can't use them when he's changed. This time it works, and Jyggalag fails. Sheogorath dissociates himself from his alter ego, and considers that he was the player (i.e. the winner) at that time, because he IS his powers as a Daedric Prince. Once he gets his mind back, he'd take his powers back, but be changed by the experience of being defeated as Jyggalag, even if it was his own plan actually working for once.

Mantling makes sense, but it works both ways. My player went back to Cyrodiil and stayed sane. Sheogorath stayed in SI and mantled the CoC there. He is helped by the delusion nature of that land, as the inhabitants (most of whom survived for once) are quite ready to accept it was really him, and the fact that it was the power of the Daedric Prince that was the actual deciding factor.

My take on Arden-Sul was that Sheo had tried the same thing before, but Arden-Sul had gone suicidally insane just before he could take over the power - which is why the two rituals of succession refer to his death at his own hands. He'd have left suicide notes in each half of New Sheoth, and neither probably gave a true story.

So my Sheogorath isn't quite self-sacrificing, but he does willingly hand over his power to save his Realm from destruction, knowing he'll get beaten up in the process. And he identifies with the CoC, who was acting on his behalf, and using his powers (being him, sort of).

This was my impression. Let's see, I got a new suit, a staff, and the ability to change the weather. Somehow I thought there was a little bit more to being a god... Then in Skyrim we see the same old Sheo. Not changed a bit. Either the entire thing was a hoax. Or the player turned into Sheo, and so grew into the role that they became exactly like the old Sheo, right down to the voice. Either way, the same end result.

Gameplay/Story segregation, and a neat little way to write off the CoC, IMO slowly the CoC started transforming into his role, and when you meet him in Skyrim he took the appearance that everyone was more familiar with, since as we already know Deadric princes can transform their appearance/gender on will and junk.
It feels more like Sheo's personality just took over the CoC's but the CoC still has some of his old memories left.

This, I agree with. Its the coc who remains the coc Withe the job and role and powers of sheo. He or she has sheos memories as well as his own. And nature and personalilty.

Tbh,, I cant think of a higher position my coc coulda become without going all aedra, at least as the most feared and powerful daedra he can still enter and visit us in our world. And yes sheo is the most powerful because he has bested pretty much all the other daedras in their own turf as far as what they specialize in except maybe nocturnal and a few, but have yet seen anything that shows where sheo himself got beated where he did not plan to or benefit himself. Hell he was the only person in the game that could take my dmg and oneshot me in a glorious fashion lol.