There are only two examples of High Treason being punished, Ulfric and the Elder Council Member. Both were given the same. Ralof insinuates it wasn't treason, though. I don't have the exact quote, can't find it on uesp. I think it went like "They wouldn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial. Treason? For fighting for your own people."

So I think what he's getting at is, Ulfric should of been given a fair trial for something else, instead of being executed for treason.

An Emperor is one thing, a Jarl another.

Nope, see post above:

A jarl is still someone of very high position in their society. Enough for the Empire to shove gold in their faces when they signed the WGC to keep them quiet.

They do receive trials. Ralof and my source, as well as yours supports the notion.

They're important, but not enough to get special treatment in something like High Treason.

An Elder Council member, is in one of the highest positions of the Empire. He got the same as Ulfric, so if the only known cases are done the same. It's reasonable to believe, Ulfric would have been given no fair trial. Just a public execution.

A jarl is technically a provincial monarch, kings in all but name.

*looks for way into debate*

Says who? Receiving a trial is hardly special treatment, especially if it's only to look "proper and just" to the eyes of their citizens.

You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter if Ulfric would have just gotten a public execution and no trial. The point is Ralof, as well as the sources insinuate he's supposed to be given a fair trial. Therefore, being made a martyr this way is very likely what Ulfric had in mind, compared to just dying in the middle of the woods. The sources support that.

People in our society get unfair trials. Does that mean that the majority of us expect the same?

edit: There's also Ulfric's desire for a better story. Being taken to the IC to speak his mind and cause, then dying for it as a hero, that's a better story than dying in the woods. Not saying that's what would have happened. I'm saying that's what he was hoping for. I gave more than enough support to show this is likely what he was going for.

Torygg didn't get a trial ...

And before you say it, yes, I'm aware the circumstances are totally different. Unlike Ulfric, Torygg hadn't committed any crime

Trial-by-duel is actually a real thing.

Treason

But is it legal in the Empire?

And what's more treacherous - preventing further war by siding with your liege, or walking up to your liege and murdering him to start a new war?

Apparently it's legal under Nordic law which still governs the High King, as he is also the Jarl of Solitude, a jarldom (read: kingdom) with its separate legal system. But no source makes it clear.

If you think your king owes loyalty to his people, the former. If you think he owes it to an overlord, the latter. Legally, of course, it's the latter, but then that law might just be a manifestation of systemic treason and as invalid as it claims the rebel is, and all bets are off when swords are drawn and law becomes irrelevant except as a rhetorical device.

I'm as Stormcloak as they come, but I love how the civil war's so grey.

I think the correct wording is what's more treacherous, preventing war temporarily by bending over to the enemy along with your liege and in the process letting them sabotauge you from the inside, or walking up to your liege and dueling him so his liege can freely do all the bending they want, with no consequence to Skyrim.

He can't do much worse than either Elisif or Ulfric, that's for sure.

An Elder Council member is also high up in politics. Same situation, same type of punishment.

Ulfric, in the eyes of the Empire doesn't have 'provincial monarch' status. He even has wanted posters for his arrest like a common criminal.

"You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths."

Trials rarely happen however, the 'Guilty until proven innocent' has been around since the First Era apparently. They are next to non-existent to the eyes of citizens, besides one about an Emperor (Who wasn't facing High Treason). Two about High Treason (One was Ulfric) both received the same thing.

Ralof is saying they didn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial, then mentions 'Treason' with skepticism like the Empire branded him as such to execute him without a full hearing.

"Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire."

He's already guilty, Tullius was his trial at Helgen and Windhelm. Being summarily tried and executed is the fate that awaits if he's caught.

Majority in TES don't get fair trials, so if you were a citizen you would expect the same. Guilty until proven innocent has been around for so long, even during the Second Era it's mentioned in a source trials non-existent for the smugglers.

In the Third Era, a citizen was arrested indefinitely for doing the Night Mother Ritual. Ulfric wasn't given a trial when he was arrested in the Markarth Incident. There are no mentions to any prisoners in Skyrim getting trials either.

The only sources mentioning trials, is Ralof who believes Ulfric accused of treason is a lie and an deposed Emperor who was going to a trial.

He gets gagged, they're unlikely to remove it to let him speak in the presence of the Emperor. Especially when rumors that he killed Torygg with his voice, are floating around. Even if that is what he wanted, he wasn't going to ever get it.

There's a difference between being 'high up in politics' and an actual monarch, even if it's a provincial one.

Yet he faced the exact same punishment. So there is no difference when it comes to High Treason, even being a monarch which he would of no longer been seen as such. You don't exactly make wanted posters for a King, like he's some brigand.

It's not that the title doesn't carry status under Imperial or provincial law, it's that Tullius is using martial law to ignore it.

I'm really not sure where this debate's going or how it started, mind.

Tullius' status as Military Governor, does overrule Jarls. So perhaps.

I don't even remember how it started, only that it did.

It was probably me, I've got to admit I don't always read the stuff I reply to...

I am laughing my ass of seeing how stormcloak and ulfric supporter getting butt hurt because their beloved ulfric lost to brunwulf

Actually I was surprised that Brunwulf and the Empire won that last poll.

Yes, my rectum is experiencing strange and unusual quantities of pain right now. This discussion of fictional events must be the cause. I thank you for noticing my plight, and hope that we can remain friends in the no doubt difficult times that lie ahead in my search for a cushion you haven't already used to pad out your thoughts.

That was the closest margin I've seen. Wasn't it something like 48% to 52% in the end, with the Stormcloaks leading until the last couple of pages?

Chests of Gold to bribe the weak and indecisive,The Empire that Talos built still worships Septims

What's this deal about a trial? Have people forgotten that you got a trial for your crimes in Daggerfall? It was removed from the gameplay in later games, but I've never seen a reference to the trials ever going away.