[Jade Payton]

I think they're both as high fantasy as each other. If anything, Daggerfall was the low fantasy entry in the series- from what little I know of it, anyway. Damn bat keeps killing me in the first dungeon.

Oblivion has an army from "hell" that simply wants to destroy for the sake of destruction, you have the ultimately "good" side and the ultimately "evil" side, necromancers are all bad, magic is even more just a tool (that somehow still doesn't flow into how the world is build up), you have ancient elven ruins made of pure white stone, it was FAR more on the idealistic side and you had an ultimate resolution of the story by divine intervention (sending the avatar of akatosh to save the day)... so no, they're NOT on the same level.

[Jessica Thomson]

Oblivion has an army from "hell" that simply wants to destroy for the sake of destruction, you have the ultimately "good" side and the ultimately "evil" side, necromancers are all bad, magic is even more just a tool (that somehow still doesn't flow into how the world is build up), you have ancient elven ruins made of pure white stone, it was FAR more on the idealistic side and you had an ultimate resolution of the story by divine intervention (sending the avatar of akatosh to save the day)... so no, they're NOT on the same level.

Wow. I can tell you're really not an Oblivion fan, because that's gotta be the most simplified version of the game I've ever seen.

1. Oblivion isn't hell, and the Dremora aren't demons. Sure, Dagon wants to destroy the Empire, but if Mankar Camoran's rantings are anything to go by, it's because he wants to reclaim Tamriel for the "Daedric Prince" Lorkhan, whom I suspect may or may not be Dagon (and Akatosh!) himself. I get a very Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma feeling off those guys.

2. Necromancers aren't all evil. They don't like you, because hey, you're in the Mages Guild, who're a bunch of stuffy old bigots. Some way to explore the other side of the story would've been nice, but what can you do? Must have something to do with them all being driven underground. Luckily, we can read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtmland see that everything's not black and white.

And hey, need I bring up the Dark Lord Dagoth Ur who sits in his Dark Castle, also called Dagoth Ur, sending out his Dark Army to kill the plucky farm boy (check out those vampire dreams) who happens to be nudged onto his path by the wise old wizards (Azura and Vivec) in order to save the Empire? Oh, wait. I already said all that.

Both games are pretty obviously high fantasy (which you proved yourself when you offered up those TVTropes links), but I can see this is going nowhere and is going seriously off-topic, so how about if we just agree to disagree?

[Catherine N]

Wow. I can tell you're really not an Oblivion fan, because that's gotta be the most simplified version of the game I've ever seen.

1. Oblivion isn't hell, and the Dremora aren't demons. Sure, Dagon wants to destroy the Empire, but if Mankar Camoran's rantings are anything to go by, it's because he wants to reclaim Tamriel for the "Daedric Prince" Lorkhan, whom I suspect may or may not be Dagon (and Akatosh!) himself. I get a very Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma feeling off those guys.

2. Necromancers aren't all evil. They don't like you, because hey, you're in the Mages Guild, who're a bunch of stuffy old bigots. Some way to explore the other side of the story would've been nice, but what can you do? Must have something to do with them all being driven underground. Luckily, we can read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtmland see that everything's not black and white.

And hey, need I bring up the Dark Lord Dagoth Ur who sits in his Dark Castle, also called Dagoth Ur, sending out his Dark Army to kill the plucky farm boy (check out those vampire dreams) who happens to be nudged onto his path by the wise old wizards (Azura and Vivec) in order to save the Empire? Oh, wait. I already said all that.

Both games are pretty obviously high fantasy (which you proved yourself when you offered up those TVTropes links), but I can see this is going nowhere and is going seriously off-topic, so how about if we just agree to disagree?

It's just as much a "simplification" as you posted about Morrowind http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1058060&view=findpost&p=15360969 AND i didn't claim that these are the facts but this is the way THE GAME HANDLES THEM. Go back to Oblivion and tell me again the invading army is NOT "the forces of evil" becuase they had absolutely NO REASON to invade other than to "destroy tamriel". And the necromancers WHERE treated all evil in the game too, you can't deny that, i know they're not and i hate that image Oblivion gave them BUT IT IS THERE. And AGIAN, dagoth ur was NOT "just evil" he actually had good (but insane) intentions.

Plus, at the beginnigny you said about Morrowind "It's about as high fantasy as you can get."... NO, it itsn't!

Oh yea and on the hell claim, the Beth devs actually said "Oblivion is basically Tamriels version of HELL" IN AN INTERVIEW.


EDIT: Yes, TvTropes is probably not the best source, but it's good enough to at least check out what the terms mean.
Btw, low fantasy

However, while there are no features all Low Fantasy has in common, there are features common in many low fantasies, each the opposite of one of the defining features of High Fantasy:

* Mundane settings: Urban, historical, After The End, or otherwise subdued and only sparsely supernatural. A clear contrast to High Fantasy's wildly superpowered setting.
* Cynicism: Low fantasy is famous for its gray morality, high fantasy is famous for its Black And White Morality.
* Human dominance: worlds which are populated mostly (or even exclusively) by human beings rather than the usual Tolkienesque mix of elves, dwarves and other humanoids.
* Plot scope: Tends to focus more on the survival and tribulations of one or a few individuals rather than the whole world. A villainous king who steals a magical artifact is less likely to be trying to bring back the Infernal Legions of Hell and conquer the world.
* Heroism: High fantasy heroes are usually all-around nice guys who stand up for the little guy and fight the bad guy. Low fantasy heroes tend to be bitter cynics desperately clinging to their broken moral compass or devil-may-care anti-heroes who save the woman from the evil sorcerer just for the six.
* Methods: Victories achieved through physical combat, not magical battles or moral superiority - the defining feature of Heroic Fantasy.
* Tone: Tends to be darker or more comedic than your average high-fantasy world.
* Sorcerers: In high fantasy, they're kindly old men who sling fireballs in the name of justice, with the exception of the villain. Magic also tends to be treated as a wondrous force that binds the world together. Low fantasy treats sorcerers as freakishly evil, and quite often insane people who would sacrifice a thousand virgins to some hideous monstrosity from another dimension just to increase their power a tiny bit. Magic is well within the Things Man Was Not Meant To Know territory and is often thought of as the evil corrupting force that entices innocent people into doing anything for power. And this all assumes, of course, that magic exists at all - there are examples where magic is essentially non-existent.
* War: In high fantasy a clear "Good vs. Evil" smackdown between civilized races and the Always Chaotic Evil races. In low fantasy, a useless war between two empires to make their lands marginally bigger.

I think Morrowind fits into a lot more categories in there than in high fantasy.


BTW again, i get the impression people think low fantasy is a BAD thing... NO it#s not, it's a GREAT thing as it gets away from all the typical cliches!

[Honey Suckle]

I'm cool with an obliterated Morrowind (that's the morrowind I remember), but I'm not cool with the waste of a perfectly good asteroid in the process. I'm also disapointed the trial of vivec has obviously been rejected. That's all really, I would have liked a Cyrodiil of petty tyrants and magocracies, but oh well, the game is two hundred years away.

Ah, forgot this: So the love letter from the fifth era wasn't a love letter, nor was it from the fifth era? "Remember Love", or love thy neighbor, has been juxtaposed with magical powers, what a shame.

[Kate Schofield]

not a big fan of the "landfall," but its definitely workable.

someone explain the dreamsleave thing in more detail. as i understand it the city is taking up souls and somehow...recycling...the bodies?


this also needs more explanation.

some questions:
How did the Medes rise to power, and when? Was there any conflict between the end of the Septims and the rise of the Medes?
Any lore on provinces besides Cyrodiil and Black Marsh?
Is Cyrodiil united, or is it divided on provincial/regional lines?
How are the guilds holding up (ive heard the MG collapsed, what about the others?)
Any obvious mythopoeic symbols around?

1. All it says about Titus Mede is that he and his army attacked and took over the city and established himself as emperor.

2. Yes, Elyswer(sp) and Hiricines'(sp) realm of oblivion

3. No, Black Marsh, Elyswer, and Morrowind aren't part of the empire. Morrowind is controlled by Black Marsh. And The Summerset Isles and Valenwood are working to reestablish the Aldmeri Dominion again. No information is given really on Hammerfell,High Rock, or Skyrim(its mentioned that the imperials think of them as being uncivilized so they are probably soverign)

3. Mages guild is gone and replaced with College of Whisperers and Synod and the Blades have been replaced with the Penitus Oculatus(a combination between the blades and the morag tong it seems)

4. What?









As for my opinion on the book i'm really saddened by the fact that Morrowind is basically gone and also that after Oblivion they still continue to involve Daedra heavily into the plot instead of focusing on the political aftermath of the Oblivion invasion. The whole concept of Umbriel and everything that happened with Annaig was pretty boring. The only interesting parts involved Colins and Suls storyline

The abrupt ending was annoying as I was hoping the next book would take place after this event and it seems obvious Attrebus and Annaig are going to fall in love and get married(foreshadowed many times) blah blah blah.

Also what exactly did Sul do at the end?

[Jessica Lloyd]

Oh dear God.

Well, there goes any interest I had in the continuation of the TES series. What the hell, Bethesda.

Word.

:blink:

The total destruction of Morrowind.

Sounds like someone's got a serious skooma & moon sugar addiction.

[Victoria Vasileva]

I'm both saddened and excited to hear about the destruction of Morrowind. I want to buy the book, but I have to hold off (recession, Dragon Age, blah blah blah).

I'm saddened because Vvardenfell has been my favorite setting in any fantasy game ever. It was a compelling combination of familiar concepts arranged in a unique format. Daggerfall and Oblivion were both traditional landscapes with traditional fantasy cultures. Morrowind was exotic and foreign by comparison.

Yet, this is also an exciting development. I was disappointed that Morrowind became a model Imperial province during Oblivion. We hear that slavery was banned, the Nine adopted, and Helseth rules all as king. It felt anti-climatic. We united the Great Houses and the Ashlanders, gained immortality, fought gods, and overthrew an entire religion. Yet, the result was rather mundane.

In destroying Morrowind, the Dunmer have become interesting again. Azura, Mephala, and Beothiah were the true gods of the Dunmer, not the Nine or the Tribunal. St. Veloth lead them to become the Chimer, away from the Nine (Eight at the time). Now, the Tribunal and the Nine have failed them. They are scattered and disorganized. Worship of the "Good Daedra" could be interesting, particularly with Nerevar still lurking around somewhere.

It is interesting to note that notable figures like Helseth or Barenziah are not mentioned even once throughout the book. I'm sure they were all ignominously killed either by the aftermath of landfall or marauding Argonians which fills my murderous heart with glee. Yeah Helseth...real smart to release all those angry, pent-up Argonians from slavery!

[Taylah Illies]

Plus, there's a precedent for this kind of thing happening. Yokuda, anyone? The Redguards turned out okay.

They're gonna run out of continent at this rate.


PS: Haven't there be rumors about Yokuda rising from the oceans again somewhre?

[Nikki Morse]

That was Thras, not Yokuda, as I recall.

Anyway, Valenwood isn't working WITH Summerset Isle, as I recall. It's more "Subject to".

The interesting tidbits as it relates to the potential of TESV are:

1. Umbra is in Solstheim, which is "close enough" to Skyrim that we may or may not get to take a hand once again.
2. The Thalmor. If Bethesda has the good sense to use what they've established in the boks so far, we're going to be in (most likely Skyrim) hot pursuit of a Thalmor plot.
3. Unfortunately, there's little to deduce what happens with Jyggalag and Sheogorath to date, but there are sixteen Daedric Princes "known" in the book. This implies Jyggy is his himself still. And Sheogorath is still active (or else you'd THINK it would be noteworthy) so maybe we get to do a quest for Jyggy. Not that I like him much. Last time he came to my palace for tea, he tried to kill me...

[k a t e]

The Dunmer aren't gone- they're hurt, but they still exist. What we love so much about them still exists. They've gotten through tough situations before- the entire storyline of Morrowind comes to mind, and multiple Akaviri invasions. You really think the fall of the Tribunal and the removal of a Tower wouldn't have catastrophic effects on the province? The Argonian emergence into superpower status is surprising, but so far their victories are over a collapsing Empire and taking advantage of a chaos situation.

I was shocked when I first read about Morrowind destruction. But I agree with you. Dunmer can stand up again.!

[Spooky Angel]

As much as I hate the fact that Morrowind's been destroyed, I find it hilariously ironic that the argonians have turned the tables and invaded the province. I also find it kinda ironic that along with dwemer ruins, dunmer ruins will now populate the island and the mainland.

Like someone already said, if you take small hits to the lore, it won't make a big a stink, people can write fan fiction accordingly, make accurate mods, etc.. But when you radically shift the lore, it can create some problems for the people who do these things. But when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what the fans think or what they do...official is official right?

I still want to pick up this book. Maybe this weekend.

[Da Missz]

That was Thras, not Yokuda, as I recall.

Anyway, Valenwood isn't working WITH Summerset Isle, as I recall. It's more "Subject to".

The interesting tidbits as it relates to the potential of TESV are:

1. Umbra is in Solstheim, which is "close enough" to Skyrim that we may or may not get to take a hand once again.
2. The Thalmor. If Bethesda has the good sense to use what they've established in the boks so far, we're going to be in (most likely Skyrim) hot pursuit of a Thalmor plot.
3. Unfortunately, there's little to deduce what happens with Jyggalag and Sheogorath to date, but there are sixteen Daedric Princes "known" in the book. This implies Jyggy is his himself still. And Sheogorath is still active (or else you'd THINK it would be noteworthy) so maybe we get to do a quest for Jyggy. Not that I like him much. Last time he came to my palace for tea, he tried to kill me...

Yeah Subject to would have been the better word to use


2. Why do you think Skyrim?You mean in the fifth game?I just ask since it seems to be a problem in southwest Tamriel

I hope in the 5th game the empire isnt united and just remains a confined to Cyrodill, it would be more interesting that way imho

[sam smith]

AM I the only one that can't see the argonian rabble conquering the Telvanni Magelords?

[Blaine]

Actually one thing i'm asking myself now, what will the NEW map of Tamriel look like, the impact in Morrowind must have ripped quite a hole in the ground and the eruption of red mountain probably cased some landscape changes too.
I think where once Vivec was is now either a huge lake or a crater connected to the ocean and the sea border around Vvradenfells is likely partyl closed due to constant errutions and laval flws. Alternatively Vvrandefell could have actually sunk due to the constant eruptions, so insead there's now a large archipelago.

Aside that i guess the borders have drastically changed too, the sotuehrn part of Cyrodiil is now part of Elsweyr as far as i could read it and Blackmarsh is now probably reaches further north due to conquering Morrowinds remains.


Oh and one thought, the tensions between Argonaisn and Dunmer must be quite high now. However, if the new game really is set much further in the future it could also be that they reached a concensus INSTEAD of a big war... you know, in politics people also AGREE on things and not just kill each other.
The Argonian attack on the Dunmer was pretty much revenger though and it's not unlike that the Dunmer want to strike back, however it can very well be that they reach an agreement.

[Leticia Hernandez]

Poor Turns-The-Page. Its fortunate she didn't live to see this. Her countrymen have cast off the great civilised society of the Cyrodiils and reverted to barbarism. :shakehead: The Literacy
rates are going to be even lower now than when she started. And Poor Idredhel... he's going to have to live in the cold of Solstheim. Dammit Keyes, you really [censored] up my RPs, you know that?

[KRistina Karlsson]

Does ANYONE else think this (or something similar) was inevitable, probably set into motion since TES: III?
I doubt you can destroy the heart of a 'god' (which is my understanding central to the red-tower) without any reprecussions.
The defences of Mundus were weakened when keening & sunder were used in such a way & everything after has felt like a natural chain of events.
Add to the mix, all those that have been attempting a new dawn, to wipe the slate clean....and it looks like in their immediate failure a longer term success is in motion.
The cleansing of the Hist... It seems to the south they are attempting a reemergence of the Aldmeri Dominion etc... Nirn is in the throes of a re-boot....is this the new Kalpa?

And to those devastated by the fate of Morrowind. We learned by lore of their origins as Chimer & the curse that was placed upon them. THAT was a radical change. The Difference? we were only privy to read about it as past events. History. NOW we get the chance to 'live through' similar and significant lore-building events and you all are furious? that's quite a disconnect.

[Carolyne Bolt]

Yeah Subject to would have been the better word to use


2. Why do you think Skyrim?You mean in the fifth game?I just ask since it seems to be a problem in southwest Tamriel

I hope in the 5th game the empire isnt united and just remains a confined to Cyrodill, it would be more interesting that way imho

One, yeah, TES V looks destined for Skyrim, which it seems is still tied to the Empire.

Two, if you wanted to create a Meric empire, of course you need to retake Cyrodiil... but what good does that do you? The Nords wouldn't stand for it. The way to resolve this problem is to isolate Cyrodiil, and that means "preclude any chance of relief from Skyrim". Keep the Emperor busy with mini-plots in Colovia, and make your real move up in Skyrim, to throw the province into chaos (and possibly orchestrate a Dunmer push for "lebensraum" outside of Solstheim). THEN make the move on Cyrodiil, when there's no chance for relief.

This is what I expect Bethesda to be working towards. It's "too obvious", while at the same time being completely open to the kind of treachery, backstabbing, and clandestine warfare that people have begged for. Think: has there ever been a TES mainline game where we haven't served the Empire? Why would we expect that to change now? Who is the apparent enemy, and where do tactics take them? Answer: The road to an Aldmeri Dominion must pass through Skyrim, or the elf-hating Nords will "rescue" Cyrodiil for the Glory of Shor

[Lori Joe]

Does ANYONE else think this (or something similar) was inevitable, probably set into motion since TES: III?
I doubt you can destroy the heart of a 'god' (which is my understanding central to the red-tower) without any reprecussions.
The defences of Mundus were weakened when keening & sunder were used in such a way & everything after has felt like a natural chain of events.
Add to the mix, all those that have been attempting a new dawn, to wipe the slate clean....and it looks like in their immediate failure a longer term success is in motion.
The cleansing of the Hist etc... Nirn is in the throes of a re-boot....is this the new Kalpa?

Actually i think what heppend would have happend anyway, your actions in TES3 just speed things up. You gotta keep in mind, the Tribunal was already cut off from the hearts power due to Dagoth Ur, their powers already started to fade (i don't really remember but wheren't the rumors in Morrowind that the Ministry had lowered?). So if D. Ur managed to finish Akulakhan the heart would have been severed from the Tribunal anyway meaning the fall of the Ministry would have still happened, maybe even sooner due to the war occuring by D. Urs plans.

And it really sounds like the plan a big lore overhaul, they already did quite a cleanup in Oblivion with the emperors bloodline beeing cut, the borders between Nirn and Oblivion being closed "permanently" and the death of Sheogorath. Now the destruction of Vvradenfells, mainland Morrowing conquered, Cyrodiil having lost ground... and that's just the firt 40 years after.

[KU Fint]

Actually, if it weren't for the events in the book and Morrowind being destroyed, it would have been even worse. Think of this, the Ingenium that would be used to create Umbriel slowed it enough that the Ministry only destroyed Vivec City and caused Red Mountain to erupt, destroying most of Vvardenfell. If it hand't happened that way, all of Mundus may well have been destroyed. Then the Dunmer became Pariah folk when the Argonians invaded the mainland, but there are still Dunmer around. I prefer pariah Dunmer and a world to explore over near-total annihilation. If I want post-apocalyptic RPing I'll play Fallout.

[Benjamin Holz]

this also needs more explanation.

It was foreshadowed by game dialogue in Oblivion - Vile's "hound" warns "that sword will be his downfall, mark my words!" or something to that effect.

[Emmanuel Morales]

It was foreshadowed by game dialogue in Oblivion - Vile's "hound" warns "that sword will be his downfall, mark my words!" or something to that effect.

Using a soul-stealing sword, he stole a part of Vile's soul and seems to have become a miniature daedric prince. However, both because of the post-Oblivion crisis barrier and an internal barrier Vile erected, anything of Umbriel must stay in Umbriel, and will lose its physical form if it tries to leave, like those moth fliers do.

[Alyesha Neufeld]

Yep. I think it's awesome how they apparently had a little seed of this plot even back when writing the dialogue for Oblivion and even Morrowind, though, because if you really go back and play them again and pay attention to what people are saying and implying, a lot of it comes to fruition in this novel.

Some of you are treating this like it's crap all over the lore. It seems to me like a brilliant and long planned out shuffling of the status quo that perfectly ties into what we've been subtly told (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml) all along. Long live Morrowind! Long live House Sul!

[Alexander Horton]

Actually, if it weren't for the events in the book and Morrowind being destroyed, it would have been even worse. Think of this, the Ingenium that would be used to create Umbriel slowed it enough that the Ministry only destroyed Vivec City and caused Red Mountain to erupt, destroying most of Vvardenfell.

Okay, now I'm confused. Is Vvardenfell destroyed or is Morrowind destroyed. :confused:

[Steve Bates]

Okay, now I'm confused. Is Vvardenfell destroyed or is Morrowind destroyed. :confused:

Vvardenfell is a big soupy mix of crater and lava overflow.

Mainland Morrowind suffered a bit of the aftershock of that, and was swiftly overran by angry, long-suffering Argonian hordes who promptly added the land to their growing Empire. The remaining Dunmer fled, mostly to Solsthiem but to other provinces too.

[Kirsty Wood]

Is there a reason why Solstheim is where most of the Dunmer refugees went? If most of the Dunmer refugees are from the mainland, it doesn't make sense to me for them to travel that far north, to an island controlled by imperials and nords...