And unlike the RR, MM and Institute they refuse to help anyone. To the institute credit they tried helping wastelanders at first but the Brotherhood has always been "[censored] those guys"

But how do you know that they're just "robots"? Glory and Deacon, at least, speak and behave in a manner entirely indistinguishable from that of a sentient human being. So does Z1-14. Consciousness is a subjective experience. Empirically speaking, I can't *prove* that anyone other than myself is truly conscious as opposed to just simulating consciousness. I'd have thought that this might have occurred to the Institute scientists at some point too.

My point, though, is that even if I didn't side with the Railroad, my understanding is that the Minutemen and the Institute also require me to blow up the Prydwen with everyone on board, i.e. there's no way to negotiate between the factions or get people to defect. And the Railroad actually does try to get Institute non-combatants out of the facility before the reactor blows up. Maybe the Brotherhood and the Minutemen do the same thing, I don't know.

The Minutemen/Brotherhood conflict is in some ways the toughest one to understand. The Brotherhood don't seem interested in the overall political situation in the Commonwealth - they're just looking for technology, and when they do get into the middle of something, they're usually attacking Raiders and Super Mutants. The Minutemen are focused on establishing settlements and maintaining safety and order in general, not on technology per se. At most, they might occasionally be a nuisance to each other if they were both running salvage operations in the same place.

Most of these conflicts seem to boil down to, "We have some mild-to-moderate disagreements that we could probably resolve if we just used our brains, but let's kill each other instead." It doesn't seem nearly as inevitable as the NCR/Legion or Lyons BoS/Enclave clashes of the last two games.

I would say basically they are. However, it is important to also keep in mind that evil regimes can be filled with people who just want to get by and get pulled along in the wake of the machinations of the hierarchy. When you are allowed to walk around the Institute for the first time, this is very evident. The Institute to me is almost a perfect representation of why I fear a scientocracy as much as I fear a theocracy. The directorate has a painful case of tunnel vision, which only allows them to see things one way. Shaun himself, when stepping outside the Institute for the first time, is absolutely horrified (and granted, the Commonwealth is a far cry from the seemingly pristine Institute) at what he sees, and it serves only to cement his notion that the surface is doomed, neglecting for a moment that there are many people who have maintained their humanity in the harshness of the wastes now for over 200 years.

The Institute is driven by the notion of progress, but the tunnel vision of the scientists, coupled with their own general apathy towards anyone who isn't "one of them", makes them incredibly dangerous. There are also already hints of bad things starting to happen. For instance, Ayo's use of Coursers as muscle within the Institute. If you weren't made Director after Shaun, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone start using the synths as gestapo and controlling the work of the scientists in a much more direct way. The Institute wants to tailor itself as a utopia, but generally speaking such aspirations end up in dystopias more often than not. I think the things they've done in the past as well, from University Point to the Warwick Initiative, indicate that they will do anything so long as they can justify it, scientifically speaking (generator tech or new crops or whatever). The question then becomes, "is there anything off limits?" and I believe their actions indicate that they would go to scary lengths to get their data or results or whatever. In short, a great injection of humility within the Institute would probably solve their problems, but they've been isolated for far too long to change. They can't see things any other way (i.e. Patriot) and they will do whatever they have to, to ensure their survival. Really, they aren't unanimously the bad guys, but they have done a lot of bad things, and I see what happens to them in 2/3 endings as paying the piper for their hubris.

You are assuming people only see them as robots. A lot of people see them as persons, a la Blade Runner.

Also, I had a thought yesterday when I was playing in my post main quest game world. The Railroad is now more open about their existence, since they no longer have to hide from the BoS or Institute proper, and so they've set up check points along major roads for shuttling synths outside of the Commonwealth. Wouldn't that also be very beneficial to the people of the Commonwealth? I thought this because I watched one of my provisioners walking through a Railroad checkpoint and then I remembered all the times the RR fought back against wild animals, super mutants, etc. That isn't the purpose of the Railroad, but I wonder if after the synths are shuttled outside the Commonwealth, if they wouldn't restructure themselves into a special task force for the Minutemen or for the Commonwealth in general. It would be very intriguing to see synths come back to work in the Railroad as well, pay the debt forward so to speak, and become agents that fight against misuse of science. Sort of like a Commonwealth special security force.

I really look forward to seeing a post game DLC that would maybe allow us to do something like this. It would be really fantastic to see how you could evolve the RR, as many people correctly point out, their chief goals are basically accomplished, so they must necessarily dissolve or mutate what their goals are. I would like to be able to continue to do radiant quests that follow their theme of secrecy or spy based work, but in the post game, that whole vibe is greatly diminished due to the outcome of events.

For anyone saying that the BoS doesn't care about the average wastelander in the Commonwealth...many times Maxson and Danse and others express their desire to protect people. I remember clearly how Danse tells you, while you are following him on the very first mission before joining the BoS, that he does want to protect others. They just don't look kindly upon Feral Ghouls, Super Mutants, and the Institute (and most likely Raiders, etc. -- anyone who poses a direct threat to the average person).

But, in regards tot his conversation, I will agree with people's comments on all factions being morally gray. However, the Institute isn't helping public opinion on them by staying cooped up below the surface. Several scientists even express their disinterest in the surface dwellers. In this regard, i agree with the isolationist, self-serving sentiment.

Who do they steal tech from?

Apparently we only see them taking tech from Raiders, Super Mutants, Ferals etc

Kill everybody they consider a mutant?

So Ferals and Super Mutants like everybody else, since the BOS are hostile to the same mutants that everybody else is in the game.......making the RR and MM equally evil apparently.

Actually untrue since if we are going back to the institute past than equally EC BOS has a history of being much more helpful (hell they were a para military charity under Lyons) and unlike the other factions EC BOS actively are attempting to clear out the hostiles which would be a huge help to the locals....even the improved EC BOS with the sensible belief that they cannot be a charity and protect the locals with no support has been abandoned for the apparent nation building can be said to have helped the locals of the Capital Wasteland since not being eaten is probably the most important first step in improving the locals standard of living.

They certainly seem evil since some of the commonwealth problems can be traced back to them. Examples being university point and the Supermutant presence in the commonwealth. I do wonder how those in the institute who are unaware of the darker nature would react to finding out those secrets.

This was another odd thing about infiltrating the Institute: you find all kinds of information on what they've been up to, but you can't *do* anything with it. I snuck into the FEV lab purely out of curiosity (then realized that I needed to get in there to find the serum for Virgil anyway), and afterwards I went to talk to some of the other scientists, hoping I'd have a dialogue option along the lines of, "I'm not sure if you realize this, but there was a real nightmare going on behind a couple of security doors in Bioscience." But...nothing. I also found out that most of the caravan drivers were being used to gather intel on the Railroad, and thought that perhaps I could warn Desdemona or at least tell Stockton to watch his words around them. Again...nothing. And of all things, I discovered that the Mayor of Diamond City was in fact a synth (which I had thought was probably just paranoid conspiracy-mongering when it first came up). But could I confront him about it, or tell Piper or someone else who might have the influence to do anything about it? Nope.

I just remembered more evidence against the Institute. They have an experiment going on at Warwick, and plan to wipe everyone out once it is complete. Even if some people in the Institute are morally good, they are being used for something wholly evil, and are taking part in it. The senior management are using those people to further their evil agenda.

People need to stop repeating this nonsense.

Nowhere is it stated they plan to wipe out the family. Reread the terminal, its not stated anywhere. "Purge all evidence" does not necessarily mean "kill the family" it could be as simple as retrieving Roger and destroying the seeds.

Nothing states the family is to be killed.

Edit: Also one of the project's scientists actually cares about the family and wants to help them, http://imgur.com/a/paqJP

But of course that doesn't fit in with the "Institute are evilz" narrative.

It could, it could also kill everyone and burn the place to ground in the Kellogg/Courser way of dealing with problems.

I would agree though that while its ambiguous enough to be taken either way its not proof of any plan to purge the settlement rather than simply the evidence of the experiment.

Its ambiguous, but people tend to take it as gospel that the "Kill everyone" interpretation is the only way to read that.

However, given Dr. Karlin's status as a project lead, his clear fondness for the family, and the fact that he's one of the few in The Institute to have outspoken views about helping the surface-dwellers, I personally think there's plenty of reason to believe that The Warwick Intiative won't end with the family's death.

I think a lot of it had to due with the history of institute expirements. Let's be honest most do not end well. Plus there's the question of what qualifies as evidence?

But is that just a biased sampling?

The Institute's probably conducted hundreds of surface experiments with little issue, most of it probably going unknown to the surface dwellers. Its just that, the main one we know of: The FEV Program, was so heinous in its execution that it tends to overshadow any others. However its also worth mentioning that the FEV Program is The Institute's version of a government conspiracy.

I'm not saying its impossible the Warwick's are going to get the shaft, I just think that there's definitely evidence to suggest that they won't. Dr. Karlin's affection for the family and especially little Wally seems strange if he knows in the back of his mind that they'll all be dead within a few months.

Likewise, SynthRoger oddly seems to care about his family. When his wife gets captured, he seems genuinely distraught about getting her back (why would he care if he knows he has to kill them all soon?). And considering that RealRoger was an abusive drunkard, it also seems odd that SynthRoger is a kindly father rather than being a wife/child beating [censored]. Especially when that actually hinders the inflitration to change his personality that much rather than keeping him a dike.

Sure but do we ever see the institute do anything good for the commonwealth before you complete the game with them? If they showed more of that there would be a much bigger debate about what the plan implies. Sure there could be expirements where they're actively helping the commonwealth but the problem is we don't see it. What we do see is the darker side of the institute.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to slaughter the Warwick's. Especially when killing them draws far more attention than not.

Bottom line: Nothing states the family is to be killed. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Edit: Also I don't mean to suggest that The Institute has been secretly helping The Commonwealth. Because they haven't: at all. I just think that not necessarily every experiment they conduct on the surface ends in a family getting horribly slaughtered.

Given their history a case could be made that it does mean they will kill them. Of course a lot of that had to deal with Kellogg but they didn't cut ties with him and kill him.

I wouldn't either. He's a damn good asset to have around.

Even if he occasionally screws things up. Killing Nora being one of his stupider moments.

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm only trying to show perspective here. It can also be argued that not killing them would draw attention as well. Wouldn't they ask questions where Roger went. The bringing Kellogg thing kind of bothered me to. Why didn't they just take the whole family and not bring Kellogg. They could have easily played themselves up as being the family's saviors. It's not like Nate or Nora would have any reason not to believe them.

I have a hard believing they'll keep Kellogg around but not slaughter everyone at Warwick

Those are two separate issues.

Kellogg doesn't take orders from Dr. Holdren or Bioscience. He gets his orders from The Director. He's a specialist they bring in when needed basically.

"Hey honey, I'm off to Diamond City to sell the crops. Be back soon."

-Roger never comes back-

"Oh no, he must have gotten killed or mugged along the way. How sad."

People are killed/go missing all the time in The Commonwealth. Raiders, mutants, deathclaws outta nowhere. There's a lot of ways for a man to die.

What I really don't understand is, why do they want to keep the improved seeds secret? They could use it for PR/propaganda. And better PR could make a lot of things easier for the institute.

It isn't about fitting a narrative, it is about being consistent with the way they conduct themselves in regards to surface dwellers. You forget that they kidnapped and basically tortured Roger Warwick for his family history so they could supplant him with a synth. Even if Roger was a dike of a human being (which he was) they still killed him, just for the sake of conducting an experiment. That's pretty messed up, regardless of what is going to happen afterward.

I mean, it would be nice if the Institute had a beneficent intention behind replacing Roger. If it was of the form of improving the lives of the Warwick's AND doing their experiment, that would be a much happier situation. Given their past, especially the FEV experiments (which you brought up in a later post), if I was going to place a bet, it would be that they are going to kill everyone to keep it under wraps. Which is another prime example of things that feel contrived to make the Institute seem bad. Why would they care about keeping their plant experiment secret? It isn't like this is Monsanto and they have a patent on their seeds, and even if the produce made it out into the bigger world, what exactly would that harm? Hardier produce for the common folk? Perish the thought.

Taking it all on its own terms though (which is what you have to do with this mess of a story), the Warwick Initiative doesn't paint the Institute in a good light. A lot of stuff about the Institute doesn't paint them in a good light. And as a final comment, I don't think the scientist who is in charge of the product cares about the Warwick's as people. As I said before, I really think the Institute has fundamentally shifted from viewing the surface dwellers as people and more as poor, unfortunate creatures. They pity those on the surface for their misfortune and suffering, but, for whatever reason, I think the surface folk are becoming like the Eloi in the eyes of the Institute, while they are taking on the role of Morlocks. I think there are a few exceptions, most notably Dr. Li, the Binets, and maybe a few others, but the majority opinion is surface dwellers are sub-human. How else would they be able to do some of the things they have?

Damn that was well stated....

And how I see it, its the same attachment Curie Had for the Mole rats....

(I actually wish they had a bit more of good things were doing for everyone going on to make the choice harder on folks, they just well mostly dont have any... and what might have been good things the institute were so damn murky we have no idea what went down)

The problem is they have no plans to ever help the outside world. It is seen as a lost cause and honestly I don't fault them for that thinking. Maybe you could get things to change after you take over (if you go that route) but there was already a small uprising after it is announced you will be taking over so I don't think radical changes in ideology will go over very well.

Neither do I. In fact, I think they're right. To hell with the dirt-scratchers and their hovels.