Criticism? We all have some. I doubt even the most stalwart worshipper of any game, of any genre, couldn't find something they'd done differently.

I can understand some criticism of features that are not so easy to change right off the bat (some, maybe never). At the top of my head:
- Guild Questlines being too quick, with fast leaps (few quests) towards leadership;
- Voice Acting being the base for the interactions in the game, making it harder to mod it in terms of adding complexity;
- Lack of in-game quest directions to hideouts/dungeons etc., sometimes "forcing" us to rely on artificially precise directions placed directly on the map;
- Lack of depth in some features with huge expectations (i.e., marriage);
- The list could go on.

Regardless of how many things we could point out as "wrong" or "broken", what I find it curious is reading so many experienced players, with years of gaming experience on their belts, complaining about features that they could solve by themselves applying discipline and self-control. Most claims as to Skyrim being dumbed-down, artificial, too easy, boring, repetitive etc. comes from people who like to lump themselves as hardcoe gamers. However, the No 1 feature of any such player is, first and foremost, his own imagination, coupled with independence: following rules even if they're not forced onto you by an outside system. Just look at Dead is Dead gamestyle, it doesn't get more hardcoe than that, and their basic premisse is an imaginary rule that they follow out of sheer self-control.

I don't wanna offend anybody, on the contrary, and I don't have any sort of special credibility/authority to say this, but it saddens me to realise this frame-of-mind is frightenly similar to people that needs laws in RL to behave and be respectful to one another. It's as if saying "If it weren't a crime, I'd bash the head of every mother-trucker that so much as looked at me wrong". This is not only childish, but disgusting.

I read the expressions holding hands and spoon-feeding been used to criticise players that need every little thing been given to them without effort. With all the respect and affection than I'm capable of having for random strangers, some of you just crack me up, because you're exactly like what you're bashing. The only difference is what you want being fed to you, but the attitude is the same.

- Smithing is overpowered? Who the hell is forcing you to spam iron daggers to raise levels? Is it "realistic" to progress from Level 80 to Level 100 spamming rudimentary iron daggers? No, granted, it is not. But you have the power of not doing it. Same goes for using fast travel, enchanting, money, dragons (yeah, playing Master difficulty, but firing arrows from a distance using the "immortality" of Followers as cannon-fodder is very hardcoe... /facepalm), guilds (you join up every single possible faction on the same playthrough - assassin; honorable warriors; mages; thieves and bards - and you wanna call yourself hardcoe RPer...?). The list goes on.

Anyways, this Forum is riddled with ideas from fellow players from all over the world of how to make the game more challenging. Try to use some of those ideas. If you think everybody in a Forum is stupid, while participating on that very same Forum, the only stupid person is you.

Give yourself some credit, you're so much more powerful than you give yourself credit. Apply the criticism you're dishing out - bashing young people mentality - to yourself and you're gonna be surprised.

Totally with you on the smithing. It's a role-playing game... try playing the role of a character who doesn't want to boost every game he plays due to impatience.

I am my own worse enemy when I try to role-play. I've always known that.

I personally have very few criticism's of Skyrim, overall it's better than i expected so far.

That said the only game i have heavily criticized is Halo Reach, it's an abomination which was proved by the majority of competitive player's refusing to play again.

Your honesty and self-awareness gives you credit LeBurns, and I'm also like that. But I find that struggle to be worthwhile.

Overall I definitely agree, particularly on the Smithing front. I'm using it as and when I've actually collected the materials (leather from animals I've killed, iron mined), and I'm 23 hours in with a Smithing skill of 43, and at Level 14 overall.

I'm not going to use Alchemy or Enchanting to boost the skill above natural limits. I will use Enchanting within it's natural limits too (mostly to make Leather Armour viable at endgame, if I can. I'm still experimenting). I'm playing Adept and finding some fights a real struggle. Not because I'm "bad" at the game, but because I've role played in a very natural way. I'm absolutely loving Skyrim because I'm playing it sensibly. I know I could overpower myself, but I also know I'd vet very bored and frustrated with it, so I don't do it.

Sure some things like Destruction not scaling could use a tweak or two from Bethesda, and some things just plain aren't as good as we'd hoped for, but overall I think most major complaints are from people shooting themselves in the foot.

The question isn't whether discipline and self-control can fix the problem, it's whether they should be necessary. Certain actions have roleplaying value but provide negative gameplay effects. That is a legitimate complaint.

Her's an example:
1. It is unrealistic that making iron daggers improves already high level smithing.
2. My high-level smith made a shiny new piece of equipment that needs enchanting. He lacks the money for an already-filled grand soul gem, but knows the demand for enchanted daggers is high enough he can easily earn enough money to buy the gem, vastly improving his life expectancy. Further, he isn't capable of killing a mammoth safely, so it isn't worth the risk to buy an unfilled grand soul gem. Nor is it worth the risk to go dragon slaying without putting the strongest enchant possible on his new piece of equipment.

Problem: If I choose to roleplay as my character would, I inadvertently improve smithing and enchanting in an unrealistic manner. I end up being able to sell my new equipment, make even higher level equipment, and put a stronger enchant on it. If I choose to apply discipline and self-control to preserve gameplay, I break immersion because I am forced to change my character concept to a brash idiot who would rather risk his life by using subpar equipment than spend a day at the forge, even though he is a skilled smith who will spend days at the forge in the future. Either way, the game loses some entertainment value. Making the enchanted daggers removes the challenge, refraining from making the daggers turns the game into a hack-and-slash rather than an RPG.

Selfgimping is the most artificial and false feeling way of solving issues. It's an out-of-game chore the player shouldn't need to revert to in order to find a balanced experience, and it steals the feeling of accomplishing anything as when you "self-control" your progression to not allow something even if the game allows it, you know all the time that it's only you who's holding back the progression and not something the requires you to acchieve.

Selfgimping is fine for ironman runs and "I-wonder-if-I-could" runs, but it shouldn't really be required, even unintentionally -- or used as a crutch against valid criticism.

Some of the guild questlines are too quick... the Companions and the Mages guild spring to mind.

As for smithing and alchemy/enchanting "exploit" being overpowered, this forum has become a Sargasso Sea of negativity regarding these, and it's more than a little tiresome.

Personally I love this game thoroughly, and I am what would be considered a hardcoe gamer. I love it as much as I did Morrowind and, although not perfect, it is a wonderful basic game that can be made even better by mods (for PC users of course). People like to complain though, human nature I guess (collective human nature I mean).

I'm with you, but that doesn't change the fact that the Guild Questlines are too short (by near unianimous word of mouth...I haven't completed any because I am practicing the discipline you speak of). I'm already a Thane for things like finding a helmet. I'd be more alright with the short questlines if you became an official rather than a leader.

I agree with your post except the last line. Most people are complaining about not even being able to play the game, crashes to desktop, or horrendous (aka 2001) quality textures. Those complaints are more than warranted. Oh yea, and how the hell the disaster of an interface made it through PC testing boggles the mind. One minute mouse clicks, the next minute you have to use keyboard, the next minute different keys... all for relatively the same task

I agree with the OP.

I don't 'roleplay' any characters, but at the same time I like what he does and his decisions to make sense for him. And exactly why I wouldn't power level anything, ever.

The game is offline - it really doesn't matter if you're not peaking everything for every level. Just have fun with the game instead of actively trying to break it for yourself...

Both valid and well articulated points (quoting only the gist of them). What I'd say - ironically - is that your articulation of said points already invalidate both of you guys as my target audience, simply because (I'm gonna go on a hunch here) you'd probably never exploit the system, even tough finding it frustrating, to complain later about how that same exploitation spoiled your immersion. That is the frame-of-mind I had in mind when writing the OP. Lastly, I never said every criticism is invalid. Heck, check my post history, I'm the first to contribute to the choir in some of them.

Aaaaaah, "self-discipline and control" ! I still can hum that ole Oblivion tune. :lmao:

Not speaking of Skyrim - can't, waiting to have a bit more time to buy and dive in : in a more general way, that argument always puzzled the hell out of me. If I have to "imagine", and impose upon myself constraints, something isn't quite right. Using a comparison : try to write a story. Even if you try to impose upon yourself some constraints, won't work well, most cases. While if you get given directions - number of words, theme... Chances are it'll be much more efficient. You'll have ideas, you'll write in a way you would not otherwise have thought of.

Of course, it really may be a personal preference. But I really do think that being given penalties, having the easy road barred from you is the way to get a more interesting, immersive experience.

No offense taken, you make great points. Self discipline is difficult when you have a game that gives you the tools to be so powerful and rush through quests via fast travel etc. Was this really intended? I don't know, but i think this is where Todd Howard and his team fell down because the game is that good when you don't exploit/fast travel, yet they allowed it. Do they really want players rushing from point to point and beating everything in 50 hours? Lets face it, gamers need direction and if a feature exists then it must be for the betterment of the experience right? In Skyrims case things like the smithing, enchanting and fast travel actually work against the whole point of this virtual world

There's probably 5 years till the next TES so lets take it slow and just enjoy the ride. In an era of achievements and leaderboards its almost unheard of

I agree with the OP. It's funny how people complain about features in Skyrim that have NEVER been a part of The Elder Scrolls series (like trade skills, marriage, dragons, etc) and all they can do is complain because they aren't up to snuff. Guess what? Be friggin grateful that you at least HAVE those new features to begin with!!!

Yes, some of them are unbalanced, but I'm just SOOOO happy that we have them at all. I haven't gotten married in-game yet, but when I do, I'm going to role-play with my virtual wife. I play a fighter, so I'm not doing any trade skills because a fighter wouldn't do trade skills to begin with. I only make my character wear clothing. That's right, NO ARMOR. I do that because I want the game to be more challenging, and I'm role-playing my character as a finesse-duelist.

Like the OP says, nearly every problem in the game can be fixed by a little self-control and role-play. The Elder Scrolls has always been like this - they leave a lot of the "unbalancing" to the players to role-play use self-control. Just be glad that these awesome new features exist in the first place.

Of course, I never meant to insinuate that there weren't major problems. Maybe I should've written "majority" instead of "major". Those issues crop up from time to time, and are completely valid. No-one should suffer crippling FPS drops or CTD's, and certainly shouldn't take them lying down. It's just that it feels like 99% of the complaints I read are about people deliberately using loopholes and then having issues with the results. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you don't like the result, don't do it! I think that's the point the OP is attempting to make. It may not be a perfect solution, but for most it should be good enough.

Agree 100 percent with OP.

Funny you should say that, because I have a stack of unused ore and leather in a chest to avoid inadvertently powerleveling smithing. My complaint is that if I knew, before investing 20 hours into the character, that a 2H/smithing/enchanting warrior who dabbles a little in alchemy risks becoming too powerful, I would have played a magic-inept character that can't enchant or make potions or a mage that doesn't rely on smithing.

Also, name another TES game that wasn't just as unbalancing, or even more so, than Skyrim. In Morrowind, you could beat the whole game in 7 minutes by flying to the final boss. SEVEN MINUTES! Aren't we all simply using self-control when playing Morrowind by not beating the thing the moment we get off the ship?

What about Daggerfall? Using a keyboard trick, you could easily spam your skills to 9999. Everyone knows that Mages are SEVERELY lacking in Daggerfall - the game is much, much more difficult beating it with a magic user than using a beefy fighter.

In Oblivion, you could beat the entire game at level 1 because of scaling.

The fact is is that every Elder Scrolls game has required a lot of self-control to even be a challenge. I'd go as far to say that Skyrim is the most balanced so far - at least you can't beat the whole game in under 10 minutes.

Irony No1: I never even played Oblivion (ikr?). Sad, but true.

Irony No2: I actually agree with *points up to quote*. Thing is - and this is probably due to me not articulating correctly what I meant in the first place - is that for me, what you said, is a given. My concern is - on a practical level - what do we do until the issues that bother us can be fixed (if at all, in some cases)? Again, my OP tackles the contradiction of exploiting something to later on complain about it; I don't think that a system that cuts out our work for us is a bad thing. On that respect you're spot on.

I respect the position of feeling that maybe Skyrim isn't up to snuff according to a certain frame-of-mind or play style. The tone of the tune that some people sing is more of what concerns me.

But anyways, cheers buddy.

Ooooh. Then agreed, of course. No point is smashing the half-empty glass over and over while complaining of the shards.


Me not reading correctly, rather. Sorry.


Not really - not on the first playthrough. You have to know exactly what you're doing to beat the main quest so quickly, and plan accordingly.

^ This! ^

Dude, I wish I had your gift for precision. English is not my native language so, yeah, takes me a while to get there (durp!).

Props, exactly the heart of the issue.

Using a wiki or youtube as a guide, you could. That's not even my point. The fact that mechanic existed at all to beat the game so easily means that it was severely unbalanced. Yet, most of us love Morrowind.

Along those same lines, building a Nord tank in Morrowind was also a walk in the park to beat the game. After level 15, every enemy in the game becomes a 1 hit kill pretty much. Now do the same thing with a pure mage, and you'll have a MUCH more difficult time. So why do people love Morrowind and play Mages then? Because they want to role-play.