100% Agree Xarnac. But the poster to whom you were responding poses a strange connundrum to all players who do feel that the purpose of an RPG is too become as powerful as possible. . . . if that is the goal, why would you want to remove anything that would hinder you in achieving that goal???

Sometimes the things people say here don't make sense. "I don't want my character to be some uber powerful demigod. . . but if the game has things that I can use to gain godly powers OF COURSE I cannot resist making use of them."

That sounds like a personal problem. Now I like playing very powerful mages. They are always Elves, tend to have darker skin, if Altmer, than is the norm for the breed, and blue hair that I explain as part of their Daedric or Aedric heritage. My Magicka and health are strong, though my health is not maxed. My marksman skill is nothing to speak of. I could not possibly one shot any enemy, other than a rat or mud crab, with an arrow. I am okay with that. I COULD bring down just about anything with my spells. As a powerfully magical being, I can get into places others cannot, I can bend even Dremora and Aureals to my will (and being a devout fan if not a follower of Sanguine. . . lol) . . . I can avoid being seen if I wish. I can even dissapear entirely! And I am a great warlock, having won many a duel against wicked necromancers and even against ancient liches. I take pride in my mastery of the schools of magic (though Alchemy is not my forte), and know that not a soul in the mages guild is better suited to wear the mantle of Archmage.

And that is how I want to play. That is how I would want to play, and would look for ways to play, however the game and spell system worked. If I Did NOT want to play that way, I wouldn't. I am not interested in the undead (other than Vampires) and so I do not have any spells for summoning Liches or zombies, though I can summon a Xivalai for the longest duration allowed. . . because I do like Daedra.

And with all this in mind, I have played the game long after completeing all the major quests, and with my current Avatar I have intentionally avoided completing the main quest, as I like the unfettered access to Oblvion ( I shut down all the gates that threatened towns, villages, cities etc.)

If I wanted to play as a common hedge wizard, I would. If I wanted to play as a warrior with a disdain for magic, I would have not a spell in my arsenal. And that is how it should be. That is a huge part of what makes a really good RPG game in this genre.

And spell making aided that immeasurably, allowing you to sculpt the magi of your liking to a very large degree. I don't think Skyrim will elimate that, but if spellmaking is not in, it will certainly curtail it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the main goal of a Role Playing Game is to play a role.

Though I recognize that, in that, I'm part of an ever-diminishing minority.

Soon we'll all migrate to the west, leaving Earth for Men, for their Age.

Man, it seems we've got a real flame war burning in this topic. Should've brought the frankfurters..
In all honestly, I really hope spellmaking stays. Right now in Oblivion I'm working on a "Hellfire" spell that paralyzes the enemy, casts fire damage, and then traps the enemy's soul. Unholy punishment to the sinners!!

Actually what little fluff there is on the actual process of spellcasting suggests that it's as much art as it is science. To cast a spell is to force your will upon the world:



I wholeheartedly agree with Todd Howard on the "spreadsheet" thing, because seriously, in Morrowind every damage spell functioned in exactly the same way, just with different visual effects. Oblivion changed it up a little bit with frost (just a little) but otherwise you were just hurling about different-colored particle effects. And spellmaking was horribly broken, easily exploited via different combinations in each game. No. Shut up. Don't say "then just don't use it." It should be balanced to begin with.

Personally I prefer a system that has spells that are distinct and practical enough to stand up on their own, because when the developer has full control of it better balance is far more likely. When I hear that resist X spells are now active shields that you have to hold up to absorb incoming attacks I get excited, because that sounds a lot more fun than casting Fire Shield and lobbing lightning bolts over and over again. I like the fact that there are spells that have completely unique mechanics and effects now, like that Circle of Protection one (which I'll remind you can be infused with elemental damage too). Besides, many of the reasons to have spellmaking are pretty much obsolete now. Spells' power scales with your mastery of the associated school rather than being a set damage amount. Effects can be mixed together and combined on the fly. Effects can be cast in multiple ways depending on your control input. I can understand some people being upset about no longer being able to name their spells, but really the things I listed are the only practical benefits of spellmaking I can think of.

Well, how oblivion reflected the damage was a percentage of the damage based on whatever you set the magnitude as combined with your spell effectiveness. That was a fine system for me personally, but to make it work with a spell power per level increase I would think that it would have to be 75 percent of your Alteration skill (I am assuming Alteration due to the fact that it alters the aftereffects of the attack, although it could just as well be Conjuration due to the fact that it magically summons damage based on your enemies' attack, although that seems silly). I feel that 100 skill in Alteration (or Conjuration) coupled with 100% damage reduction for the power up per level to be a bit too much godliness. Just a thought though. And yes, I know that this is probably a very late reply, but I am just getting through all the posts here, haha

Yes. My too. :unsure:

I have come to the conclusion that spellmaking should be in. My argument still stands. Even the OP acknowledged it:

- Contrary to belief, spellmaking does not diminish the uniqueness of spells. Here's my example again:

Holy Light
Absorb Health on Target
Turn Undead on Target
Light on Target

This spell is unique because it suits my character style. I am a Paladin, Master Exorcist and Bane of Evil. By utilizing the spell maker, I can invent spells and concepts that may be lacking.

This in turn, gives the developers a resource for new ideas. Todd might look at this custom spell and say "We should change up Restoration, or do this, etc.". And as a result, the developers shape and change the game based on our feedback.

Bottom line, to remove spell crafting would limit our creativity and the developers inspiration.

I dare someone to counter that argument. TRY IT! :toughninja:

uh, okay.

That's not unique, my character knows absord health, turn undead and light too. I haven't made a unique spell for that, but I could still cast the three spells after each other for the same effect.
(yes, there are spells that wouldn't have the same effect unless you cast them at the same time. This isn't one of them)

But as for uniqueness, I mainly mean how all generated spells feel artificial, "balls with effect" (except destruction spells, you nitpickers...) and fire-and-forget. Now we might have unique spells, both in function and look.

I'll see how it works.

But I did enjoy the heart attack spell.

Ok, it's quite simple, just "Rename" those spells. You'll have the exact same spells, so if there's a rename option you're all good to go.

Weird that nobody remembers Todd talking about having no spellmaking/crafting because it makes the game feel to spreadsheety. I will look for a link after work. No guarantee as it may have been in a podcast and i'm not gonna listen to it but that was one of the first things mentioned.


Ok found it faster than I thought. Here is what is said in the podcast.

13:50 One thing that when I was down to see you guys at the studio was stuff related to how spells would interact with each other and that kind of thing. And I would suspect that the results of your experimentation on that would have an affect on whether you have anything like spellcrafting, right?

"Yeah, spellcrafting is a real wildcard. Something that we've done a lot. And there are pluses and minuses to it. We'd like to find... we have some ideas that we really like on how to solve that, and I don't know where that's going to go. But the thing that we DON'T like about the previous systems that we've done, is it becomes very "spread-sheety." It takes the magic out of magic. You got to see the game, but your listeners haven't. There's a bigger emphasis on how the magic physically acts. Just a spell like fire; there are different spells for how the fire moves. Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you're spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance. So our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane powerful thing. And once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can just say I want something at this distance and this power, it removes the illusion of like how this stuff actually works. So we have some ideas of ways around that, but we don't know where those are going to go yet. We do have the benefit of, we're really, really happy with how the magic plays in the game, both visually and mechanically. And then being able to do it with both hands. There are opportunities there for combinations and things you can do without getting into the spreadsheet aspect of it. Which I do know some people like, but it does take away from the impact of the spells that you're finding and mechanically how they work."


So there a have it. Todd has his heart set on the new way they have done magic and it does away with making your own spells.

That is unique and it is one of those spells - in one spell, he achieves those three effects on one target. As opposed to you utilizing three spells to achieve three effects. What if you MISSED? Then you may have absorbed health, and turned the zombie away, but you haven't lit it up, so it isn't Holy Light at all.

Besides. I'm trying to use single effect spells all the time in Oblivion, and it's a pain in the posterior. . Too much swapping between spells to achieve the same combo effect I could have got if I'd only used one

What if I want to role play a sheep rustler and create a Command Creature up to level 1 for 10 seconds in 50 foot on self? I don't want to have to cast that spell 8 times on 8 different sheep only to have to keep casting it again and again, but nor do I want to "charge it up" for a higher magnitude so that I command a random giant that's walking along minding it's own business. (assuming giant's aren't NPCS). That's a fairly unique spell I would say. It would only be truly useful to a limited type of character. Couldn't be used in combat after higher level monsters and creatures start appearing.

As far as I can see, the problem with spellmaking in Skyrim for most people would be a lack of combo spells - which could easily be added into the game without too much problem. In fact, it already appears to be there (Offensive version of circle of protection). I have the utmost faith that bethesda will sort any issues brought up by a lack of spell making.
I agree with variety in look point.

I think it's ok that unique spells are gone.
It removes the "stat stacking" and "OHK" weapons so that you can immerse in the game. I know I could do this anyway...but when the temptation to power up a character is there, and you kind of feel stupid when you don't.
I hate that I'm trying to build a character while my friends zip through the game because they made some overpowered person who could never exist in real...er fantasy..life.
I liked making spells that felt unique to the character I was building and that demonstrated spell progression, but I'm more than happy to lose them.

1) I dont care how a spell looks, I care what it does. There is no way that 85 pre-made spells come even close to what spellmaking allowed.

2) What nonsense. All that is needed is the option to delete spells, same as in Morrowind and Daggerfall.

3) Again, nonsense. The solution here is better spells for NPC's, not removing spellcrafting.

4) That is awful. I want to be able to cast a low yield spell at a rat and a powerful spell at a lich. I do not want all my mana gone cause I zapped a rat with my spell that inexplicably got better and more expensive.

So, no, I do not agree one bit.

Well did you read his post well?
All spell effects was in one spell, not three separate spells thats need chose and cast in sequence, as well there is example of using beneficial spell effects like Light on target to highlight enemy, there is no evidence thats new spell system still allow apply different spell effects in various ways as before, there is only evidence thats spell can be used in different ways like charge spray and bolt, does on self on target, on touch, still here?
Another thing magical FX has nothing with ability combine various spell effects into one unique spell
there is example of this
Spell effects combination thats Aradal post can have various visual like this ones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGXm74gSkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpsETvKjenw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qYEkvc9OFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RPHAmMwLQY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bhQz1_9ZoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qBysDmhQ0
Without of any problems, if devs create only one FX for spell thats problem of implementation not of system.

Oh well having the same spell but under different names is not the same as having different spells, rename will not help here as well we can name spells during spellmaking.

Then balance it. Why does Bethesda have to scrap every system that is a tad off? Why not tweak it till it's fine?

aww the mouth breathers no longer get their easymode TES, boohoo. No more easily beating the game with 1 quickly created spell.

I hope that spellmaking is revamped or out, to be balanced and fun. The dynamic casting already seems good enough.

Well I hope you dont mean me by that as I am not a player that plays games the easy way.
I am however all about roleplaying. I like choice, customisation and freedom. Yes, I am in full favour of 100% chameleon, even though I dont use it. (Except to follow NPC's around to write down their schedule for guides.) I want to play the game as I want to, and not as some developer in an office cooked up. This means I do not want to follow that pass to that place everytime. I want to be able to jump or fly an alternative way.
It means I want to cast the spells that I made, not pre-cooked spells. It means I want to wear glass pauldrons with a leather chestplate and steel gauntlets, not one item = whole armour.

That is the point here. That there mathematically is no way the new system gives more freedom than the old.

If I want to easily beat the game Ill turn the difficulty slider all the way down.
I do not wish to be told by FPS and MMORPG people who wouldnt know an RPG if it bit em that its a good thing the game is becoming more simple and rigid.
There are already a thousand of those games out there.

Spellmaking in Daggerfall and Morrowind was the best thing in a game ever. It was like they said: Here are the mechanisms by how the game works, go tweak every variable you can think of. Enjoy.
It was like a huge toolbox that allowed so much freedom over the game world and its inhabitants, there has never been anything as awesome like it.
In Oblivion the main problem was level scaling, as with all aspects of the game.
And now its just gone? Im not happy about that at all.

I would be cool with it if spells grew more powerful as you progressed.

And that's also a problem. What if I want to make a weak spell that I can use on weak enemies instead of consuming a fat amount of mana every time I use it?

How are we even going to DO damage over time spells? I know fire has damage over time, but what about other spells? How are we even going to have a duration on illusion, alteration, etc spells like buffs and debuffs wtihout spell making? I just don't see how its going to work, unless those spells have a set time. But in Morrowind or Oblivion you could do what Merari described and make simple but effective spells that last a very, very long time.

The issues that arise from NOT having spell making just seem to be far too much, unless they DO resort to what I described (set AOE affects, set damage over time effects, set duration, etc). How BORING.

I agree with the OP, custom spells are too overpowering and with the ability to launch two spells at the same time, things will get out of hand.

I agree with myself. Custom enchantments are overpowering, and the with ability to dual wield two weapons at the same time, things will get out of hand.

See how that works? I could just as easily argue to remove custom enchanting. Now you can only pick from a set or prefabricated enchantments, basically like the orbs from Oblivion, except that's the entirety of enchanting now. Isn't it FUN and SIMPLE and BALANCED?

Because it's not a matter of tweaking it, damn it. It was fundamentally broken. They'd have to revamp magic completely and hey, look at that, they [censored] did. It's far easier for them to balance it now, and if it must come at the cost of throwing together spell effects (that you can still cast separately and simultaneously) under a stupid name so you can feel like a unique snowflake and pretend that magic works in a way that it doesn't work in the game or the lore, big [censored] deal.

Seriously, I have yet to see a single person present a single convincing argument for why spellmaking should remain that doesn't cite "creativity" as a reason. Never mind that the actual creativity you could achieve was pretty damn limited. Mashing together spell effects under a single keypress is not the same thing as creating unique effects. If stuff combined in such a way as to completely change the way the spell looks and functions a la Magicka, that'd be one thing. But it didn't. Just tell me exactly what you'd do in the new system if you could "create" your own spells. I'll bet it will probably be just about as boring as all the "imaginative" spells I've seen people listing here.



Except that's not how the new magic system works, either. They've confirmed that you can combine spell effects to create new kinds of combinations or use them in a bunch of different ways. Damage, range, spread etc. are not set in stone the way they were before.

Because creativity and freedom are what elder scrolls games are all about. Sheesh, now I have to find an argument that doesnt fall into that just to fit it in your head?
No.
The actual creativity you could achieve was nigh limitless and I have yet to see a single argument that doesnt hinge on "but now they look cool" against that. See how that works?

Combining effects in the right way and order is esentially the same as creating new effects.

And for the last time. The way it looks is the least important bit. Its what it does that actually matters.
Function over form, sheesh.

Well, just because you think its boring does that mean that I can think youre into the wrong series of game?