Read "The_ugly_guy_at_the_Store"'s comments, he explained it very well.

Well said.

But I just don't think you grasp how complicated it really is to balance something as intricate as the enchanting/spellmaking. In hindsight, it seems easy, but with a launch deadline fast approaching, and your livelihood depending on getting it out the door...

Yes, there's balance issues all over the place, but this particular thread is about spellcrafting in particular, hence why it's the discussed subject. One of my biggest complaints in Fallout 3/NV is how overpowered stealth is. The Gap especially widens on higher difficulties, when Sneak-attack ambushing deathclaws is about the only effective means to avoid a grizzly death.(Or Dart gun in FO3) Does that mean sneak should be nerfed? Not really, the only issue is the AI doesn't react well enough in groups. You blow the head off a Raider in plain view of his friends, they shouldn't go back into "Idle" mode and talk about molerats before the corpse has even gone cold.

It seems simple, especially if you have no background in something like programming.

Of course their are boundaries for the game to function.

But what some of you are talking about is handicapping certain character types. It is essentially pushing the developers to make the game in such a way that players cannot become extraordinarily powerful because some of you don't like playing as extremely powerful characters, even at high levels and after many hours of play and advancement. OR, some of you like playing powerful characters, but not powerful wizards, and rather dislike the idea of people playing wizard characters who pack more punch than your thief or warrior characters.


Many of the things you call exploits are not neccessarily so. An extremely powerful wizard will be able to do extraordinary things with their magic.

What is more, and in this same vein, exploit does not mean unrealistic. Wizards, warriors and thieves, and combinations thereof, would of course, use their abilities and ingenuity in any combination that would give them an advantage, within the paramaters of their own codes, beliefs and biases.

Each premade spell become unique, thats remark must be done because custom spell was all designed with useful purpose in mind and was unique by spell effects combination while unique FX visuals was achievable by recreating such spell in CS with new script effect thats add nice visuals at last and uniques ways of using spell in best.


Well actually I cant remember such problem in morrowind since I have Spell Delete button to forget such problem, ridiculous thats devs forget add such function in Oblivion UI, anyway after I drop vanilla Oblivion after and of MQ and start modding my Oblivion installation first Spell Delete mod become available for me.


Well I'm not powerlevel when play games I just limit for self certain exploitable combination until there is no come any mods thats fix such exploits, for example just few mods add such depth to game when you will take in account many factors and dont rush into combat and think about tactic first, for example
Audacious Magery
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25844
Thats add concesqunes to spells jut like in true RPG
Supreme Magicka Update
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12466
What balance and improve magic as well return axed spells from game
With level scaling overhauls enemies become interesting and challenging instead of just meat sponges like in vanilla, so if such problem as to powerful spells in compare with NPC was in game thats was definitely problem of flawed vanilla.


Well spell leveling and charging was available in Modoblivion also
Chargeable Spells
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27746
Thats is not exclusive feature of Skyrim, there even was way dynamically on fly change properties like target for spell and way to be casted on target as well as duration, range, all of this depend on skills and charged magicka and have consequences like overcharge.


I would say thats having unique premade spells and dynamic their usage is great way to improve all premade magic but it no exclude spellmaking at all, even more I'd like have access to mechanic of such unique spells, at last in CK, as best there can be high level perk in enchanting for achieving such unique spellmaking so thats will be similar to Epic spell creation what avaible only for high level charterers what devote his life for studding magic so you must have certain skill levels in magical schools to make spells effects from such schools available for spell making as the same way as it need for enchanting to know and have ability to uses such spell effect before we can enchant something with such effect.
Thats was before in TES we need service of skilled masters for spellmaking or have access to arcane knowledges written in old books as well there was many spell thats have author names between premade spells like Baronoff's Bloody Icicle or Aryon's Blight Cure so spellmaking was definitely not for novices and more like for experienced magic users, novices use already discovered spells which thy learn, now when Mage Guild is out thats will hard to learn spells in such way, more likely we need search for old arcane tomes or receive them as rewards from quests, but if you are experienced in certain schools you can use spell effects from known schools with knowledge of enchanting for creating spell scroll what then can be uses for custom spell memorization or be sold so others can also try to receive advantages from such scroll, so scrolls will have variety of effects but crumble to dust after usage.

I think enchanting must not relay on sigil stones like enchanting they was really unbalanced in Oblivion since allow enchant in easy way very powerful items, much better if there will be also return of soul bond effects with advantages and disadvantages from Daggerfall such soul gems can work as toned down sigil stones and have positive effects but also can have negative side effects if soul bods was used as well at item break ghost of creature will be free and will attack closest target.

You say this, and then the rest of the post. I'm confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?


I actually do have a background in programming.

As stated the same people barking no..Regurgitating how Spell making was "spreadsheety" are the same people flipping in excitment about Echanting/Smithing/Crafting/Alchemy.


Do you not see the Irony here?


what would you do If Oblivion had no spell making (for those of you who used it, those that don't or don't care aren't a voice in this discussion since you are fine either way) ? the amount of useless spells in Oblivion was crippling -not to mention- after a time increasing in level, those spells became -even more useless- because the enemies leveled faster and higher then your spellbook could be updated, and then if your that kind of person -yes- your spell book would get cluttered but thats the fault of level scaling, not spellmaking and as stated Spell delete existed in Morrowind...Hmmm what happen there....

Such advocates are just fire starters and have no basis other than to piss someone off.


I here people going on about realism and believable world, but what kind of believable world would Skyrim be if every enemy that used a Fireball spells knows the exact same kind of fire ball spell your using??

If you can't draw a line between "Powerful" and "Broken", then we have nothing more to discuss. In short, no game should ever strive to remove challenge entirely, but RPG's are in a weird position of having to have multiple playstyles, and, adding more difficulty, Elder Scrolls games feature a totally nonlinear world, so it's hard not only to create an effective difficulty curve, but also dictate where the Peaks and Valleys in difficulty are.

The word escapes me right now, but there is a term game designers use to refer to flawed ease-of-victory conditions. There has to be a "Cost" associated with incredibly powerful "Win buttons". Take Modern Warfares "Noob tube" The grenade launcher (M209 I think?). It's regarded by many, particularly veterans, as the antithisis to balance, but actually, it's a great device that lets "Noobs" have a fighting chance against the steamroller veterans. But it has tradeoffs, including, but not limited to, it's loss of effectiveness at extreme range versus guns. Spellcrafting, however, was more like the "Airdrop" glitch, I'm not sure how many people are familiar with that, but basically, it allowed member(s) of a team to obtain unlimited airdrop supplies, including (but not limited to) AC130's and gunship packages. Any COD'er can tell you, particularly regarding the Gunship, If you have essentially unlimited packages, there's nothing the opposition can do to win.

So, does that mean IW never should have patched the Unlimited Airdrops out of the game, because that's "Dictating how someone plays their game"?

And, I know the 'Omg, it's multiplayer u stoopid" flag is going to go up, but it doesn't make a lot of difference, since at the end of the day, it's about the design intent of the game. Singleplayer or Multiplayer.



Agreeing with you, it should be every developer's intent to balance with the maximum level of freedom, I'm just saying, it isn't always realistic to expect it.




Then you know, nothing is just a "Quick fix". Sure, they can be, if you're lucky. But let's not bank on that.

When Todd was referring to the "spreadsheety-ness" of the numbers in spells, was he saying that all spells will no longer show the numbers of the effect? For example, will a flamethrower spell read "20 points of fire damage for each second"? Or will it read "Incurs considerable damage for each second"? I will be severely disappointed if it is the latter, however I am confident Todd was just referring to spellcrafting and having the character themselves select the numbers. For why would numbers be removed completely from spells? Bethesda surely hasn't removed numbers from melee weapons and bows, so why would they remove them from magic?

I hated spell making because it introduced a system to compensate for the absence of the one that should have been present.

As MK -{OmegaX} pointed out, Oblivion (as well as Morrowind) were full of useless spells that were either useless from the start or quickly became useless as you leveled. The only way to overcome this is with spell making. The problem I had with this is took away the fun of magic in general. If I wanted a super powerful sword I had to work my way through a grueling dungeon to look for it. I couldn't just make one myself or buy it. Magic and the risk vs reward is non existent in Morrowind and Oblivion. There is no exploration, discovery, or work involved aside from leveling up your skills. It is completely un-rewarding and has no element of mystery what so ever.

I wonder how rewarding the game would be if you could acquire all the best armor and weapons in the same way? Just level up blade and make the best swords in the game however and whenever you want them. If you could do that why even bother going through that long dungeon for a reward that you don't need? The same would be true for spells. Even if there were greater variety of spells in the game and a greater variety of ways in which to acquire them, none of that would matter if you could just make them to your own specifications whenever you wanted and without any effort or risk. You would never visit a vendor since it's easier to just make what you want than have to search for it. You wouldn't search for dungeons either because first, you would have no guarantee of finding a spell and second, the reward for the dungeon would be obsolete anyways.

Part of the fun in games like this is to be rewarded by acquiring a new sword/shield/spell. Spell making destroys any possibility of that.

What I would enjoy best is if cyclical threads with cyclical notions didnt pop up every month in a new jacket as if they were the Nine.
But I guess some people enjoy dragging things out and I sure am posting here, so there ya go.

Once again.
There is no known way in mathematics that a system that let us tweak all in-game NPC variables can outdo a system with 85 pre-made spells castable in 3 ways and held in 2 hands.
There is simply no way, its like comparing checkers to a pentium v chip.

Its not a joy.
Its an amputation. Any view that disregards that elemental fact is fundamentally flawed.
"oo things look so cool now, they arent just a ball of light"
As I said, fundamentally flawed.

Very well said :icecream: :hugs:

Only if you ignore that Arena had by far the best spellmaking in the series, Daggerfall came as second and it didnt really start to get annoying limitey till Morrowind.

I think, what he means is, it's no longer about "Clicking from a list, then clicking [use]", which was magic in a nutshell. It was a battle of information. The new direction is supposed to be about making the player in control of the magic. Making it malleable and much more dynamic. By that I mean, a Simple fire spell's properties can be altered on-the-fly during battle. From placing defensive glyphs as prep-work, to laying down a flame wall to cover your retreat, to hurling a fireball at an approaching group, all without going through the "List" to pick the effects.

Well, Todd did say that these different properties of fire, for example, are all their own distinct spells.

He mentions it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLWt7HnAZPQ

"There are different spells for how the fire moves like putting it down like a rune... ... or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands or a fireball that you charge up..."

Okay, I can totally agree with that then.


Yes, some things are might LOOK like a quick fix, and then it turns out that one dependent part of the code has to be changed, which makes another part have to be changed and so on until you change the entire program. It gets really nasty sometimes. But thinks like Chameleon could at least be attempted to be changed, considering it IS one of the developers pet peeves, apparently.

Hmpf.
I dont see how thats a good thing.
Its very action-y, its not very wizard-y.
I like thinking about spells I may need.
New direction? Fine, but I think its high time to stop pretending its gonna be an RPG.
If its what you said its certainly not. Not a TES RPG anyway. What it will be, I dont know. Oblivion 2.

No athletics and acrobatics? Fine but lets stop being babies and imagine perks. There is going to be one run speed and one jump height the whole game.
There are going to be insurmountable passes you have to painstakingly find a way through, so you can walk just as the developers imagined to 'make the map larger'.
Not good, not good.

I think he means different casts. They already mentioned that pressing cast will just cast a ball, while holding it will cast a jet. Combining two of them will make a mega spell. I guess the rune is contextual or it IS a different spell.

Heh I did all that "on the fly" mess in Fable for 2 games, theres nothing on the fly about being pelted by several enemies at the same time while trying to get a decent AOE fire ball because your normal fire ball spell, no matter how much you spam it, doesnt do enough damage in relation to how much magick you have, I like to make my kick your ass but drain my Magicka pool significantly Fire ball spell thank you, not some predetermined mess that needs perks to increase in damage and is basically the same spell all enemies who use magicka and have that spell utilizes.

Yeah, I'm totally not excusing any obvious oversights. A lot literally took modders 14minutes to patch at 100% effectiveness. It'd be like leaving "Developer" weapons in the game. Oh, a silver spear with 900 reach and 25,000-35,0000 Damage in Sellus Gravius's Office, that's just how I want to play dawg!


More on subject though, I don't think Spellcrafing has officially been ruled out, I think they're still messing with some possible solutions.


Someone a few posts up was talking about how Magic wasn't really rewarded through exploration, and I totally agree. Though occasionally, in Morrowind, and Oblivion with Spell tomes, you can find some pretty nice spells. Things like the Dwemer Centurion Summon and the Command of the Third Corner are nice.




Then complain on the Fable 2 forums?

Now that I think more about it, it can be looked in both ways, but I'm still not sure if you are right.

Think about this. How would you cast either a fireball and a flamethrower with the same spell, but using a different cast? You can't really do that. With a fireball, you either tap or hold down the button/trigger to send out a ranged attack. With a flamethrower, you either tap or hold down with the same button/trigger to let out a continuous stream at a close range. They're both different, and I can't see how it would work with the same exact "fire" spell.

Would you advocate the same system for weapons and armor? It seems to me that the same argument can be made for every weapon and armor in the game. Each is predetermined and needs perks to increase in damage and is basically the same sword/shield that all enemies who use weapons or armor and have that particular item utilize.

Perhaps you would, i don't know. But I'd bet most people who like spell making for similar reasons wouldnt like weapon and armor making(that is just like spellmaking), and it seems a contradictory position to hold.

85spell effects, not spells. I I'm fairly confident we'll have 'Weak Fireball" "Strong Fireball" and "Overwhelming Fireball", though they all act as the one "Fireball" Spell effect. And you're probably right, the whole "Glyph" Thing is almost certainly a different spell, it's a little confusing though. Frankly, we just haven't seen anything in regards to the magic, just heard a lot, which is open to interpretation.


It might be better described with two spells, which really helps the "Pure Mage" thing take off in earnest. Such as combining a shock spell with a shield spell, to yield reactive shock armor, or Ironskin with Fireball to send a flying, molten shrapnel grenade into a pack of wolves.

That is how it worked in past Elder Scrolls games, and I see this continuing with Skyrim.

if it allows for the spells to have unique looks then the lack of crafting is a plus in my book

Ditto!