what you are, my man, is narrow minded. read between the lines, look outside the box, think beyond "this text was in game and this one wasn't." oh, real world example time (dont kick me DB). Christianity. how much of it is actually in the bible? surprisingly little if you consider modern worship and beliefs. the 7 deadly sins (sloth, glutony, envy, etc.) didnt come about until the middle ages when some dude decided to write them into a wholy different book, and yet they are accepted as official parts of the religion ("cannon" in our terms). why? well, that dude knew what he was talking about and his work reinforces what is already established in the bible. ok, thats over now, lets get back into TES.

gods, i had so many quotes in this post that it refused to let me format them all as quotes. so youll have to deal with italics instead.

Wood for the trees guys?

Heyyyy - the big 'us'. Scaaaarrryyy. or does that stand for United states???? Massive!!! I must not contradict 'us'. Ummmm ... hooooolld on a minute, Who is this US. How many of US are there? 50, 500, 5,000? And because this undefined US thinks one thing that makes it so? Definiteley a winning argument with frightened 3 yr olds and school kids who you are educating into the belief of US and therefore your own superiority. I know that game. Getting back to this question later
dont be retarded. "us" was plenty clear.


People ... you ran a poll? Seveeral polls? And half a million people responded? sorry, I don't put too much store in polls for various reasons - including the fact that with mass media vast numbers of people can be influenced to support things they do not actually understand. Beside another poll will tell you the opposite. I will accept that this is honest comment on your part (polite of me eh? ) but then I have talked with lots of people too, and watched them make choices about how they wanted to mod Oblivion and Morrowind before it. Guess what? I have seen very few SF mods using ES (those that did had some good people in and they folded) and whenever anyone tried to introduce SF/modern artifacts into traditional ES mods they got laughed at.
because they used SF incorrectly and did not reference it back to the actual lore of ES. and they got laughed at by very few people (if any, i have yet to witness anyone being laughed at for making a mod that doesnt conform to the universe). on polls: polls dont matter for [censored]. most people are ignorant, forgetful, or downright stupid. have you seen "are you smarter than a 5th grader" lately? judging by that brilliant piece of television our society is made of people who are smart enough to get a career but too stupid to remember the parts of an atom after being told for 10 years in a row. just because the majority of TES fans knows nothing of TES lore doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.


What it boils down to is you appear to be part of a small but talented clique that is busy convincing itself that black is white and relying on the reputation of a few former devs to intimidate others into accepting anything you post as Lore. Well, please back off from that a bit and let others breathe too.
there, you done breathing? yes, there is a relatively small number of people who really appreciate TES lore. are we talented? well, some of us are. others not so much. but thats besides the question. we dont try to convince ourselves of black/white, we know that Mundus is the Gray Maybe (hehehe). it is YOU who sees everything as black or white, right or wrong, coke or pepsi. oh and we dont intimidate either, unless you are intimidated by our superior prowess and understanding of issue that you just cant seem to accept (hehe). really, whats so intimidating about explaning things already cited in a few books?

Either the guy is on the team or he is not. If he is rehired then he becomes a dev, and if his Nu-Mantia intercept is accepted as is then it is Lore - if not? Well, he might still write, but if Beth aint buying then he is writing fan fic and gets massive kudos for past contributions as a dev and present contributions as a fan based on the quality of his work. Did it ever occur that if the actual devs of a future release decide to incoroporate this document they will just buy him out, then cut it to pieces to suit requirements and excise any tiny detail that goes in an undesireable direction. And are you saying devs only become cool once they are no longer employed by Beth? rofl
well, then he is on the team. since the word "freelancer" or the frase "helps out when needed" doesn't appear to be in your vocabulary. "undesirable direction?" have you played oblivion lately? most devs nowadays dont know much about lore, and if they do they aint using that knowledge. besides, the Nu-Mantia intercept would never fit into a game. it is the illegal and secret interception of a Dream Sleave transmission between a moth priest and the Elder Council and discuses matters much to complex for your average gamer to grasp. what would justify its inclusion?


Look - we had a new member joined our site the other week - guy called Terry Pratchett - who is truly a wonder of modern fantasy writing on this side of the pond. I checked to make sure that this was not a case of a kid stealing his identity when I was informed we had a new member, I welcomed him to our Forums, bunged in a notice in the new Library Forum I just created stating there were "no jokes to be made about apes unless Terry says Ook! Because we suspect the The Librarian may have interdimensional capabilities." - for a larf. And got on with my own stuff. He's a cool guy - very friendly, totally fascinated by modding, and downloading oblivion and our stuff for him and his friends. I did not feel overawed to the point where I lost touch with my own commonsense and my personal values, though I rate him right at the top and I'm pleased as punch he found something that interested him on our Site! (sob - he did not say anything about my books - oh well, such is life ) See, I just name-dropped too! Telling me that a former dev wrote something is not a winning argument for something else. It tells me that you rate that former dev = cool as far as that goes. I do not rate devs as Gods or Daedric Princes, wonderful though their contributions may be - except for a larf. I grew up, got ripped off, published, praised, cheered and disappeared - that's life. And like your Dev I have hopes of being published again.
ooh, whose bragging now. omg, i was once like totally on this one like forum and MK was on and i was like awesome! and he was like thanks! and i was like will you sign my briast and he was like sure!(story mostly fictional). the point is that we dont treat them like gods for being devs, we treat them like gods for knowing what they are talking about. have you ever seen the lore comunity worshiping Gstaff or some level designer? nope, because they dont present us with awesomesauce works.

Heyy, maybe I am Todd Oooooh maybe you are Todd - so what? That stuff is a game too.
nope, we already know all of Todd's usernames, thanks for playing.


Let's assume we accept the term Void. But what is the Void in our 'scientific terms? Maybe what makes the Void differrent from the sky and the Mundus is a lack of magica? Maybe the Void is actually co-eval with the Mundus and you get to it by slipping through the 'cracks' in the fabric of the Mundus? Now where did you experience that?
or maybe you dont know what youre talking about. the void is an absence of matter both in TES and in the real world... nothing to dispute here.

A future and even an ancient past Nirnian society might create a Void-ship - it might be silvery - but purlease do NOT try to sell me on a Chromed Studebaker, mega-camper with 4 wheel drive or Columbus cxxx Now THAT's lame. Though I did enjoy Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy aan dDoctor Who flies about the timely looniverse in an obsolete police telephone box - right?
we never tried to sell you the hitchhikers guide. we tried to sell you the magic vessel of akatosh which looks like a tower on nirn. apparently you aint buying.

A future and even an ancient past Nirnian society might create a Void-suit. Now what might it be made of? Alchemically created or treated cloth? With a permanent enchantment weaving a sheathe of magica-generated spells to conserve or build magica, protect suit and wearer against the whatever long-term effects of the Void - which may have significant differences from 'outer space' ... and be more to do with movement/lack of magica in that realm rather than a lack of air?

I think I just answered that re the Void or it might be that new kinds of enchantments have been created.
its powered by love... or Vehk's ego. besides, its Aetherius we travel too, not the void. endless nothingness is boring.


Things do not HAVE to go the SF way even if a few former devs (note the plural) say so. ... be honest and face facts, with Lore the wordies dictates the genre. As one of 'US' wrote earlier it is the number of key words that define the balance, bung in too many key SF wordies and it no longer is fantasy
Pelinal - So enchantments are now lame? No matter how simple of infinitely complex they may be? Get on with you! Sounds more like you have become a bit jaded and need a break? So take a break and see if you still enjoy ES when you return to it.
maybe you need a break. is warhammer 40k scifi? most would say yes. yet it has the staples of fantasy: orcs, elves... etc. do you want TES to be a strait up cookie cutter DnD world? thats all fine and dandy, but we think thats boring. if i wanted DnD i'd go play some. a good story does not conform to its genre but goes beyond it and redefines it to be dynamic and interesting. thats what we love about TES. it seems to me that you want TES to be a boring cookie cutter world of hippy wood elves and evil drow... i mean dark elves.


Just DO NOT try to tell me that your argument re 'a' is correct because you kissed 'b' last night - big turn-off and that's exactly what you have been doing in your sly adolescent way.

- 'course if 'a' is a great kisser and you tell me you learned something from 'a' and you highly recommend other people to kiss 'a' that's fine if 'a' likes the idea - but be prepared for the fact that I probably kissed 'a's' grandmother and she was the hottest thing you never tasted! If you are not prepared to accept that and in good fun, then I am just going to assume that you are on an ego-trip ... again. Which is boring.
...what the [censored]? kissing? grandmother? hot? are you still referring to the way we actually have a connection with devs? are you saying that we give devs sixual favors in exchange for information? are you being a duchebag while making no sense what so ever? i think the later is most correct....

It's just as much name-dropping when you rely on the name attached to the doc you refer people to, rather than the content of what you are responding to and its relationship with the content of the thing you are supposedly referring it to.

Did I make a mistake with that sentance? You are saying that the geezer's hand holds a laser gun and Lady N is saying the geezers spacesuit is powered by love (Barbarella roll over) and you both accuse me of getting it wrong. Somerhow I find Love-powered lazers space suits so convolute there is only one thing to do - rofl ... nah - Lady N is actually saying that there are love-powered space suits ... hmmm - now what is the difference? oooh - pwitty flowas ...

I aint sayyin that I do not like any of the stuff you guys have put out on the forums - I just wish you were not so up yourselves that you refuse to rub along with all but a few people who belong to your little clique. And it is a small clique , isn't it? and one that likes to accuse lone posters of being megalomaniacs if they dare to contradict you. and believe me a lot of people on other forums do not want to come here any more because of this.

I am not saying that I never get things wrong. I can - but I lose a bit of confidence in people who get so worked up they totally misinterpret what is being said - as in part Lady N has done here. Do you know why?

That same loss of track is there in a lot of the stuff going on here. Your cliquish attitude is causing this. It is harming people who need to let off steam and yet need also for the people around them to behave responsibly. Hell I need to let off steam occasionally too, and I do, but when I see several people counting on their numbers or someone else's support to make their arguments right then I get disgusted by that.

I like the fact that you have a sense of a thematic landscape etc. I like a lot of your feel for the game and the Lore and your writing generally, but ... I am saying that from my observation (with this sf thing) you are pushing the boudaries outside what several hundred thousand other users of this forum are looking for and hoping to find here at the moment. Though some may not be seeking an intellectual challenge here, their wishes count because they are already here and frankly I am willing to bet that the percentage of those who do understand is so high it makes no difference that a few do not. A poll does not matter in this - but repeated observation does.

I was also inviting you to consider what will happen if you convince the next bunch of devs who do not understand w** you are talking about (as you inferred) that you are correct ... then that corporate machine really will geet to work and we will have Zelda meets Buck Rodgers because you will have removed the constraint of the need to respect the work in previous releases to a large extent ... oops?

I also believe that dumbing it down does not help even those who like to view this as a simple game. But sensible discussion seems to go out the door when people try to score points in maths on the basis of a social interaction. It's like the Middle ages and the Holy Brothers are all saying: thou shalt believe in science for the Lord saith thus: thou shalt not believe in Him without a rational and scientific explanation - and by the way here are the writings of our Dominican brother, Jacko who knows what it is all about - and here are Brother Jacko's canons, as handed down to the inquisatorial arm of the church and they would like to have a short word with you to make sure you conform with the standards that Brother Jacko has set for us.

Too bad that in your haste to contradict me (apparently I am the infidel) and with you being so busy using other people as a crutch that you lose track of saying what you actually think and the implications thereof - because what you think is far more interesting. It's unfortunate that you have taught Lady N that people cannot think and stand up for themselves. Really, in her haste to do me down and back you up she has been confirming many of the fundamentals of the views I have expressed here and then claiming that I want to disagree with what she and you are saying. :rolleyes: :wacko:

Maybe next time we meet you could both try and think through what you are really saying? ty
... and stop coming on like the four horseman?

ps - I remember what this has to do with lev Lady N - I wonder if you do? Nah - you will just have to go and actually read the thread to find out

Oh man that's good stuff. You Mortazo and Shades should have a M?nage ? trois.

:lmao: :nuke: please

'Us' are the people that have had this same discussion with the few random people who come around every now and then trying to say that we can't use the Obscure Texts in valid discussion.

Being a good modder (or being able to mod) doesn't mean you're any good at coming up with a way to make Sci-Fi feasible in a fantasy universe. TES is not 'going the sci-fi way', it has two or three references to sci-fi'sh stuff which helps make the world more interesting.

The Obscure Texts mesh beautifully with the 'official' lore, and since they are dev written and serve to explain things that Bethesda has failed to explain (and because they do still have the power to put it into the game), that is why we follow them.

If we're gauging the size by the regulars of this particular forum (since it is the most relevant), then no, its not small. If by the size of the entire forum of people who care nothing about the lore of the series and are content with flashy lights, then yes, its quite small...

Perhaps you could give us the names of these "people on other forums" so that we may properly hunt down and exterminate them... :ninja:

Those several hundred thousand are looking for flashy lights, I frankly can't see them giving a crap about whether there are vague references to spaceships and time-travelers in TES. There are those that frequent this forum who aren't looking for deep discussion, yes, but they don't have to participate in it and nobody's really going to care; if somebody wants to settle for flashy lights then let 'em...

I can understand if this forum comes off as cliquish, that's what comes from having the same old tired debates alongside the same people for an extended period of time - eventually we just come to a consensus because we're tired of talking about it. So when the devs come along and give us ideas that are new and fresh to chew on, naturally we're content simply in the comforts that they are devs and that what they've given us serves to make the world more interesting/dynamic. Afterall, if we (or they) fail to continue "pushing the boundaries" we end up with nothing other than boring monotony...

Lol that's super hilarious.

While a debate about whether or not the Obscure Texts can count as proper lore is an interesting topic, I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the Levitation Act. :hehe: (why even bother replying to such posts? :mellow: )

Anyways, I think it is safe to assume that the Levitation Act is little more than an attempt to cover up the lack of Levitation and the like in Oblivion (as already established)...Though it is not a very good explanation, it is far better than not having a single mention at all about why all knowledge of the Levitation spell seems to have vanished...So, at least they tried, I guess. *shrugs*

my post has exactly as much to do with levitation as yours does.... that is to say absolutely nothing. how nice it is for you to assume that i am a weak female creature easily controlled by the Big Bad Albides. ever thought that these are my own opinions? i am not backing Albides up (though our views on this issue are indeed the same), i am going against you on my own accord. in your rant to make us out to be the bad guys of a clique bent on worshiping false gods (devs) and bringing down the poor, suffering, lore newbies you failed to see one vital issue... but ill let you figure that out by yourself, since it is usually the first thing you jump to anyhow.

God is Love 1999, and thats not just obscure texts talking. is it so hard to be a little creative and accept the fact that love can stop meteors from falling or that a god can come to nirn on a spaceship?

Actually. I don't find the members here to be elitist at all. If you're just honest with your questions. They will be more than happy to answer them. Heck even MK might throw in his standard one-sentence reply every now and again. Its when people have preconceived notions that are false is when friction comes in.

I used to think Sithis was something else, and I got into an arguement with one of THEM over it. He was remarkably patient and attempted to enlighten me, I thought he was speaking down to me, when he was merely trying to help. I was the one being a stubborn montana mule, not him. But I thought he was because there was no way I was wrong.

Do you see how easily that role can be reversed? Elitists wouldn't bother answering your questions because you're simply not capable of understanding, watch me start a thread on the Enantiomorph, and see how many responses I garner. When its on its third page of insightful references and discussion in less than two days, then try and call these fine folks elitists.

Indeed. 90% of the time it's really all in your head. Obvioulsy, I haven't been here just super long, but even then I haven't seen ANYONE act elitist in any way.

Aaaaw... *giggleblush*

(Not that I would be of much help in a Enantiomorph thread, anyway )

edit: Oh, and I should add, the same goes for me. Of course, I spent a lot of time reading and learning before I actually started posting here, so many of my more... extravagant ideas on lore were never revealed to others.

I would be the first to agree that the obscure texts are fascinating and a step forwards, if so many had not already done so - as it is I will have to reaffirm what I said elsewhere what seems ages ago. Sadly if they are not adopted, or adapted and adopted then there will be a big hole in the Cosmos of the ES ... if there was a vote I would vote them in.

But I guess I would still choose to maintain my view of 'those three details' as being fantasy oriented rather than sci-fi.

At the same time, if people are not to be 'permitted' to discuss and dispute regarding them, then the chance to expand on and extend them is lessened. Also I have seen on other forums that adhering to a canon rather than encouraging informed or learning opinion kills progress and the developement of new talent. I resist it as a matter of caring and principal - especially when the offenders are themselves potentially highly talented.

I happen to belong to the 'Guild of Hopefuls' - we believe that if you make it good enough then all the smart guys will be sated and invigorated - and so will the multitude that are impressed by the flashy lights be too.

You might find that those people on those other forums have the names, adresses and ip numbers of those they do not want anything more to do with, and they are prepared to use them But who knows? Maybe one day the walls of Jerico will come tumbling down. I would prefer that they simply opened the gates and let some fresh air in.

There are regulars on these forums who simply steer away from the 'clique' or never log in here as they have already seen how things work - and they don't need it - sad that. I know - many of them are old friends of mine - but then I have made only a few hundred friends here that I know of - so what do I know?

And thank you for your calm wordies of wisdom

The view that they are fantasy oriented is fine, it's the less-than-exiting interpretation of them being simple enchantments that's not cool. Alternate explanations for the phenomena are welcome but those explanations have to be interesting enough to 'invigorate' people. It's not that they're not permitted to be discussed/disputed, but rather that nobody has bothered initiating a compelling discussion about them - instead those that disagree usually choose to write them off as 'unofficial' or offer boring explanations that just won't do...

Well that was disappointing.

Eh, bugger this. If 1999 wants to interpret a general consensus as a conspiracy theory, he's entitled to do that. He's already proven himself mad. Not least by speculating over the cause of why so many people dislike Oblivion and then turning around and attacking Luagar for using the word "many" without figures when he was corrected. Then saying "many" avoid this forum because of elitism. I gave a very clear statement of what I consider to be lore and got an incomprehensible polemic against the community in response. Sorry, but I ain't playing.

"...there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity..." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11)


___TWM