We've had this talk before, more than once, but the most recent thread fell way off the radar so I want to take this opportunity to re frame the debate in the pursuit of the truth, or at least a consensus.

The life span of Elves on Tamriel. We're told several different things by conflicting sources. I'll be attempting to list the ones I'm personally aware of, and adding some commentary. I'd appreciate if other contribute evidence I will undoubtedly overlook. Even something as small as a snippet of dialogue from a game would be appreciated.


The 1,000 year lifespan argument - Some people seem to think that Elves have a very long natural lifespan. One evidence of this mindset comes from the Real Barenziah, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/realbarenziah.shtml



Based on this statement, a 1,000 year lifespan is possible for Elves but fatal trauma or disease reduces the likelihood.

Dram: http://www.imperial-library.info/intros/rg_chars.shtml This guy confuses the issue somewhat. He is stated to be over 200 years old, which would support the "Elves live a long time" argument. However he is stated to have been killed and reincarnated more than once. This contradicts later lore about the Dreamsleeve recycling souls and erasing the memories of individuals. We can deduce several possibilities about old Dram:

1 - Maybe it's a lie, or misinformation. Maybe he's not nearly that old. Or maybe he hasn't reincarnated, and when one Dram dies another Dark Elf takes his place. The mask would help with this deception.

2 - Maybe he's actually that old, and has been aided by Necromancy or other magics, and never actually died. Maybe the death/reincarnation story is a myth that he encourages to make him seem more fearful.

3 - Maybe it's actually true, and he somehow has abilities that are otherwise very rare on Tamriel. The ability to retain one's consciousness after physical death. Maybe his pact with Sithis/Mephala makes this possible in the way Umaril's pact with Meridia made it possible to be reborn in a new body.


Exceptional Individuals: We can discount these guys as evidence simply because of the fact they are exceptional and achieved their life spans through unusual methods. IMO. Others may disagree:

The Tribunal - Thousands of years old, but achieved physical immortality by tapping into the heart of Lorkhan. Their lifespans are unnaturally inflated to an extreme degree.

Divayth Fyr/Telvanni Lords - largely rumored to partake in obscure Nercomantic rituals to extend their lifespans. These magicks are unavailable to the average Dunmer and the average Dunmer would probably not participate in them due to religious belief, etc.

Mannimarco - Apparently either a Lich or an extremely well preserved mortal Altmer. In either event he's the most powerful practitioner of Necromancy in all the world, so his 1,000 year lifespan should not be attributed to his Elven lineage so much as his powers as a sorcerer.

The Psijic Order - We're lead to believe that certain individuals within this Order are very old. But for similar reasons as the above individuals, we can't seriously include them in a debate about natural Elven lifespans. They're the oldest organized magical group in all the world. They've surely figured out ways to vastly extend the limits of the flesh, not to mention they live a life of relative luxury in seclusion from the affairs of the world.

Umaril the Unfeathered - Doesn't count for several reasons. For one, the one we face is a reincarnation. That body was not thousands of years old. For another his father was an old god from a previous Kalpa. And finally he had made a pact with a Daedric Prince to preserve his soul. So we basically see a half divine/half Daedric clone of a dead old Elf king. This isn't the typical lifestyle of an Elf.


The 120-200 year lifespan argument: I should mention this is the one I subscribe to, because it's the closest we have to an official developer commentary on the lifespan of elves.

The evidence is http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/alvur.shtml, which is not an official in game document but does appear to contain several facts about Morrowind which were later discovered to be true. I personally assume the following comments on Dark Elf lifespans are true as well:



We're told that the Dunmer are descended from Aldmer, and I'm not sure if the curse which transformed their skin also reduced their life span, but we're not explicitly told this so I don't assume it. I do know that an Altmer culture hero, Phynaster, taught the Altmer to add an additional 100 years to their life span simply by altering the way they walk. Taking shorter steps. The sources which mention this neglect to mention what the original lifespan of Altmer was before this enlightening discovery - but here's my take. For a race that already lives 1,000 years, another 100 would seem sort of insignificant, doncha think? That's a 10% increase. But if they only lived to be 120 to 200 years like the Dunmer, that's as much as a 100% increase in natural lifespan. While a 10% increase would be note worthy, Phynaster is actually considered an important enough character to be a culture hero of the Altmer. So his contribution was considered significant. Doubling the lifespan of a race of people would justify this veneration much more than adding another 10%. So I logically deduce that the natural Altmer lifespan was closer to 100 years than 1,000 years.



Thoughts? Additions? Corrections? Intelligent debate is appreciated.

Well... Berenziah herself is well over four hundred years old, and she's no Telvanni. I'm more inclined to agree with the 1000-year theory. As for Phynaster... a 10% increase to lifespan by simply altering how I WALK is enough to grant him culture-hero status in my book. It's like he invented penicillin.

The Altmer are also frequently mages, so I imagine it'd be pretty common for them to use magic to prolong their lifespans.

From all in-game accounts Barenziah doesn't seems to be unusually old for a dunmer noble, and she's about 400 years old.

Which hints that the dunmer upper class live quite longer than the commoners, with a lifespan in the 400 to 500 years.

And even if Phynaster 'only' added 10% to the altmer's lifespan, it still a significant ahievement, an human equivalent would be a one-shot 10 years increase in lifespan.

100 years is a loooong time. I think it's pretty huge 10% or not.

Anyway, I'm more inclined to go with the second option, though I'm unsure of both because of the lack of solid evidence presented in each case.

I suppose 300 to 500 years wouldn't be completely unrealistic for the upper classes, with access to the best healers. (Or being capable mages themselves in some cases). That's still closer to 100 than 1,000, which was my statement. That encapsulates a pretty wide range of probabilities, from 100 to 499. It makes sense that the farther up the social scale a person is, the better access he or she has to more nutritious food or good healing potions. And of course the easy lifestyle that would age a person more slowly than manual labor in the fields or the armed services.

If you look at society in our history on Earth, only in the past century or so have people been reaching the lifespans they do now. In medieval times, people only lived to about 30, or 40, and 50 was really old and out there. Disease and a poor standard of living compared to what we have today resulted in that, and very few deaths were genuinely of old age. Even today, most deaths are due to some kind of critical complication that's chance increases with old age, rather than the age itself.

I imagine it's the same with elves. While magic exists to cure diseases and complications, I would imagine that only the higher classes have any access to it, so, as an elf's lifespan increases, the percentage chance they'll be afflicted with something fatal exponentially increases the older the elf gets. That would imply that there's a practical limit of lifespan at some point unless there's some adequate standard of medical care for disease and complications. So those like Barenziah, or any noble retainer could indeed expect an 800-1000 year lifespan. A commoner might very well only make it, on average, from 120-200.

Essentially, you have to realize that the "range" of healthcare available on Tamriel is far wider than on Earth. It can range from medieval peasantry to health care far beyond what doctors are capable of treating today, depending on your ability to afford and access such care. That means that a very wide range of possible lifespans for elves based on their economic class is a pretty reasonable and logical conclusion.

Hmmm... There is a direct correlation between Magicka and age.

Well, of course. Better access to magicka means better access to healthcare. It's synonymous in Tamriel. In the case of the Telvanni, it also means better access to certain necromantic practices, as Divayth is well over 1000 years old.

Well that much is obvious. If we examine lifespans of the races of Tamriel, the ones with the least natural magicka seem to die younger. Orcs, Nords, Khajiit, etc. But it stands to reason that any person who masters magicka to a high degree lives longer. But that's really a more general discussion about life spans that doesn't focus on the Elf lifespans.

One good example, though, is that people widely accept that Janus Hassildur is well over 100 years old on the rumor that he is an accomplished sorcerer. So apparently a human extending his life through magicka to elf like proportions isn't unheard of.

By natural do you mean average? We could average out some years of certain elven races... If only we were supplied with a good amount of them! I would agree that altmer, if not all elves, live about 100 years.

... on average.

My proof would be that every time someone makes it to 200+ the whole village is talking about them, so naturally they all must not be used to seeing that age.

the world has had four gigantic disaster at the end of the third era (not including landfall.)
Elves have 1-3 children, maximum.
there must be a steady population decrease, and the oldest and wisest would generally t\be the first to go (more magica, and elves tend to ue it)

I feel like 100-200 for "common" elves makes the most sense to me. I'd say that's 3-4x longer than the average human, which is plenty long. I just can't see the average elf having a lifespan of 500-1000 years. I see that as fantastically unrealistic, even in the context of a game like the Elder Scrolls.

I mean the natural limit without relying on sorcery or necromancy to extend it...

Well, I always thought the reason the elves get to live so long was because they were closer to magic so any elf's lifespan would be extended by magic.

I tend to think that Dunmer live to about 200 or less. And High Elves live to about 300 or less. If people lived over 1000 years on average, I think we would have noticed that in the games. Also sry I'm being short but I'm typing fast and its 4 in the mourning. I might come back to this thread and elaborate, but in short OP I agree with you conclusions.

Yes, but you'd obviously agree that a mage of any race would live far longer than the common pauper who never studies magicka, or at least very extensively. That's why an Altmer sheep farmer may only live to be 150 whereas Lord Divayth Fyr, a Dunmer, is reputedly somewhere between four thousand and five thousand years of age. If you check the CS, his magicka pool is right at 1,000. The most that the player character can achieve even with the proper birthsign is a few hundred. Of course those are game mechanics, and they can be exploited, or not considered part of lore, but the fact he is so full of magicka and appears to be in his late fifties or early sixties in human terms rather than his extreme age if several millennium is telling of the preservative qualities of magicka. And of course we have Mankar Camaron, a man who is mostly Bosmer in the lore (but appears Altmer in the game. But his stats and birthsign are unique), living well over 300 years and appearing quite youthful, as if he could have lived indefinitely.

The Orcs, as a race, probably have the least natural magical talent with the possible exception of Redguards, and consequently Orcs are widely stated to have short lifespans. I doubt many of them live to see their seventieth birthday. I would imagine that a Master Wizard of this race could extend his life to over 100 years and beyond with ease though.

^
Yeah, but then the natural lifespan of and elf is extended by magic so discounting long-lived mages in a discussion about the average age of an elf is a bit odd, don't you think. It would be like finding the natural age of a human by examining malnourished individuals.

It's not that simple though. You're almost making it sound like every single Altmer walks around casting spells every day. Being born with innate magic is one thing, but actually developing it and using it on a daily basis is another thing altogether. Mages are treated as the elite caste in Altmer society. They're the aristocracy. The average High Elf is not much different from the average Imperial. They are smiths, bakers, farmers, soldiers...common men and women. The under classes toil long and hard to make a living in any society, and have very little time for education or application of magicka. Most of them probably know just a little about it. Like they can make low level potions or cast weak healing spells, because it's in their blood, but to actually become an accomplished and learned mage takes years of dedicated study and application of one's talents.

That's why we're talking about average/natural lifespans. The Altmer mage lords in their castles and towers are obviously not representative of the average Altmer experience, the little guy who works nine to five shining shoes or tanning leather. It's his lifespan which would more accurately represent the average of the Altmer. He's somewhere between beggar with leprosy and millionaire wizard lord. He's the everyman.

Then we should include the telvanni lords and Psijiic order in the averaging of the lifespans. If they are so rare it will not unbalance it to much towards the 1000's of years side of the table but will make it a closer representation of the race's lifespan.

And the not walks around casting spells every day thing is wrong, because the old mages likely don't need to continually repreform their ritual thingies that give them their lenth of life and saying that the average altmer doesn't have acess to such high magic is also flawed, in medieval europe the everage lifespan was about 30-40 years, with adequate food and lifestyle people can easily live twice as long, so the natural human lifespan is much larger than 30 years. Just because most people don't have acess to something doesn't mean it should be disregarded.

Tricksy, only some elves can use magic. Even though they are much more magic oriented then the other races, they are similiar in that the majority of the race consists of normal people. Everyone walking around casting spells all day wouldn't make sense. It'd break the economy, the balance of power and strength, as well as society. I mean, nothing can go right when ever average joe is walking around with huge power over life and death.

I have no idea where your proof for any of this is coming from. Keep in mind that the TES Uiniverse it unique in almost every aspect when compared to generic fantasy worlds. I think you're getting mixed up because there's so much emphasis put on the Magical ability of the Altmer, people can not realise that there's more to the race then just magical abilities. They are also renowned swordsmen, warriors and train goblins as servants. It's actually a very interesting race which has a lot more going for it then just the "ALL ELVES ARE WIZARD DUDES RUNNING AROUND CASTIN' SPELLS", which isn't true anyway.

I think the upper/lower class thing makes sense.

Didn't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned... but maybe the shorter-life spans are due to some Mer bloodlines mingling with the shorter-lived races of Men? The book On Phylogeny supports that at least outward appearances of a hybrid are like its mother's race. Maybe this includes factors such as life span, or a hybrid lifespan that's shorter than a mer parent, but longer than a mannish parent.

So, Mer nobles and mages you would expect to keep "inside the family" with "purer" bloodlines. The effects of shorter hybrid lifespans may take several generations before the briefer longevity is more noticeable, and it is possible an offspring of a hybrid and non-hybrid would "gain a few years" from the pure-blood mer parent.

Ah okay. Yeah I've noticed that coming up in conversations a lot with Altmer in all these games. They feel they are more pure blooded and closer to the Aldmer ideal than other Mer. It's sort of like the pureblood/mudblood dichotomy in the Harry Potter universe in a lot of ways. I can imagine the downside to this, though. I'm picturing a lot of arranged marriages between cousins and other unsavory scenarios in my mind.


And yeah there would obviously be more to Altmer society than magicka. They have their own style of armor and weapons for one, as we see in Oblivion, and Cyrodill's architecture, currency, language, culture and military discipline are all derived from Altmer society. So apparently Altmer high culture has also produced superior tradesmen, economists and soldiers as well as mages.

Oh, ancient cultures thought nothing of frequent sibling marriage, incist, and the like. You think first-cousin marriage is bad, you should see what habits those Egyptians got into. The divine pharaoh lineage followed maternal lines, hence the whole men/boys marrying mum, sister, or daughter. Through in enough political murders to make your head spin, and you get some really twisted family trees. It wasn't just Egyptians that did this sort of thing, though, a lot of noble/royal families in various cultures/civilizations around the Mediterranean did this (could be the practice was common regardless of class, but I don't think those marriage records survived history as well as the high-profile people).

And only some humans are competent doctors and nutritionists yet the average lifespan in a developed country is much higher than in a country that does not have those services. Anyway, I'm not saying that most elves live thousands of years, I'm saying that the ones who do should be taken into consideration, as an elf's lifespan is already extended by magic, simply by being a mer and not a man.