The loss of Spell making was a terrible loss indeed. : V - Skyrim

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:19 am

Um...no one would buy their games if they were that much of a [censored].

But if you think about it we're kind of being [censored]s too by complaining about something they put hard effort into.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:26 am

Spellmaking as it was in Oblivion and Morrowind would not work with the current enchantment system (namely, stacking magicka cost reductions to get free spells).

The only thing limiting the power of created spells was the magicka cost to cast it, versus the caster's magicka pool. If spells costed 0 magicka to cast, you could create a spell that does thousands of damage. It would be like walking around with a fatman and unlimited mini-nukes.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:24 pm

Oh, believe me, I know exactly what you mean. I'm the guy who made a comparison of Skyrim to Fable. There were responses along the line of...

*GASP*
*CHOKE*
*DIE IN AMAZEMENT*
*REVIVE IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE HONOR OF THE ELDER SCROLLS AND TO PUNISH THE HERETIC*

Don't get me wrong, I know they are different games. They play differently. But I also know that there seems to be a lot of similarities, at least, in my view. I stated those supposed similarities. But many did not even try to refute my reasoning. They were just upset that I mentioned the "F" word. But that's how "[censored]" react, especially on internet forums. Maybe that's why game developers have gained a reputation for dumbing things down... because they are targeting an audience with "less common sense" these days, to put it nicely.

I never play a mage-type character, so I never bother with spellmaking. It doesn't affect my "gameplay" any, but the problem is that is does affect my "game." My game has regressed because they removed spellmaking. My game and gameplay has regressed because they have either removed or reduced the scope or quality of many things.

I have absolutely no problem with adding new features to a game. Smithing, for example, although not implemented properly, is a welcome addition. But it should not come at the cost of another feature. There was no reason to actually worsen the way that horse riding works. Going back to Oblivion, there was no reason to remove a working system of crossbows, throwing weapons, and spears. There was no reason to streamline the skills system by combining shortblade and longblade. It was beyond reason to combine axes and blunt skills. The is no reason to go from a 10-piece armor set in Morrowind to a 5-piece set in Skyrim. There was no reason to reduce the amount of choice and depth in dialogue and questlines in order to feature complete and fully voiced actors. There was no reason to downscale the size of cities from Morrowind to Skyrim (just compare Vivec to Solitude). There are no reasons, good ones at least, to do any of that. There are only excuses. Bethesda isn't playing Little League baseball/football where only effort and sportsmanship matters. They are in the big leagues where the only things that matter are performance and winning. Sadly, it seems that they would rather play in a Division II where they can be lazy and the fans won't mind as long as they can get drunk instead of taking pride in what they do and wanting to be the best of the best.

wow very well said. TES games are losing so much with each new release.

They are just appeasing the casual gamer, the casual gamer that will not buy the DLC and will move on to the next COD or shooter that comes out.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:40 pm

Spellmaking as it was in Oblivion and Morrowind would not work with the current enchantment system (namely, stacking magicka cost reductions to get free spells).

The only thing limiting the power of created spells was the magicka cost to cast it, versus the caster's magicka pool. If spells costed 0 magicka to cast, you could create a spell that does thousands of damage. It would be like walking around with a fatman and unlimited mini-nukes.

The game mechanics shouldn't be designed to allow free spells in the first place. Cost reduction is ok, there should be a limit though.

Couldn't a simple solution to unlocking magic be a Bound Lockpick spell which would summon ethereal lockpick and fortify the skill by fair amount? You'd still have to play the minigame and each try would cost you mana.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:21 am

Um, no, we complain until it's added back in.

Haha, that's the spirit, Ayo, fight the good fight. I want to create my own spells. It should be in game already. It's not an mmo so if it's a tad overpowered, so be it, I paid for a single-player game, no?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:17 am

I don't however want a "careful what you wish for" ending that results in an horrible crafting system in TES 6.

As many screw ups that are in the crafting trees as is I'd rather have the crafting in than not it. So I don't get a careful what you wished for vibe. I get a thanks for putting it in but a few tweaks would make it even better vibe.

And most of the balance complaints(not all of them) are similar to the balance complaints of spell making which really is a don;t like it don;t use it appropriate situation IMO. Not that fixing the balance is wrong, but any time you have to work a system to get abusive I just don't care.

The spell making abuses were recursive stacking, short duration/effect for limited magicka costs. 2 quick easy fixes that neither steal peoples freedom and balance it, highest effect wins they don;t stack, and put in minimum costs for duration/effects so even if it is a 1 pit damage/1 second duration it still comes with a somewhat hefty cost.

Similar to the current crafting issues. Put a cap on the recursive stacking if it is seen as an issue, don't remove the skills. The main real "abuse" with smithing is tied into its horrible perk tree layout. It is hard to balance leveling the skill based on value of the item when without the perks you are stuck with iron, that would basically force you to perk it to level it which would be a bad design. But for ES 6 keep it in, but actually add cool effects the smithing perk tree and have materials unlock by the skill level so you can tie leveling it to item value. For example have heavy armor perk that increases the armor cap by 5% so you can absorb 90% instead of 85%, have a perk that reduces a speed penalty you put into heavy armor, have perks that add bleed effects to weapons, increase attack speed etc. None of this moronic you can now craft steel stuff, I mean what the hell did leveling get you anyways.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:36 pm

I'm gonna be so ticked if you guys make Bethesda mad and they go back to orange balls too make you whiners happy.

And yet the colored balls with spellmaking was a vastly better system. But I know game play is so worthless in a game, all that matters is the shiny.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:00 pm

you honestly believe the loss of spell-making was worth runes and flashier effects?

... i dont think you like playing mages. if a flashy looking trap is all it takes for you to overlook a massive loss in variety and customization, i think your better off playing a sneak or something.

No, but I think the loss of spellmaking was worth dual wield casting, which is why I venture to guess Spellmaking was removed, because it wouldn't be compatible with dual wield casting and would just cause a mess.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Nope, I would say it's one of the best things that's happened to the series. Makes the spells more unique and important.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 pm

Btw, there are many very simple ways to make it work with the current system (completely feasible developing-wise) and even make it far more interesting than it was AND keeping current spells "unique".

Oh, you're part of the Skyrim development team?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:07 pm

I'm gonna be so ticked if you guys make Bethesda mad and they go back to orange balls too make you whiners happy.

This is outdated graphics. No reason at all to worry about this.
Besides effects and textures of spells in Skyrim aren't all that advanced for Bethesda to not be able to create spell making with the current graphics, Even mediocre machines wouldn't take a large fps hit or anything.
So we won't go back to the orange balls anyway (even if imo it was more enjoyable with these outdated graphics).

Oh, you're part of the Skyrim development team?

Huh? Do you have to be a car mechanic to determine whether a car needs breaks or not? -.-
Really if you come at me with ironic comments please make them count and not just say shenanigans.

No i just have common sense and i know a thing or two about developing - not in a professional level - but still it's enough to be able to approximately tell what is possible to implement and what is not. It's not like i'm 100% confident that everything i say are easy to implement but thinking about what could be made to balance the system and having played the previous games, yes, common sense and a bit of creativity is all you need, really

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:07 pm

Why is it that people who claim to be the "voice of reason and rationality" usually can't tell the difference between opinions and reason? Just plain egoism?

And Straightforward =/= Antagonistic and belligerent.

+1 For adding Spellmaking back in right here (and more spells!)

http://thequickglimpse.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/the_dude.jpg?w=553&h=417

Far out, man.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:35 am

Not everything should have returned imo. Skyrim is a game on its own and I'm glad its different than Oblivion.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:23 pm

Not everything should have returned imo. Skyrim is a game on its own and I'm glad its different than Oblivion.

I agree not everything should have returned. But spell making is not one of them!

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:04 pm

I don't miss it, and its lack of presence in Skyrim fits with the lore of Nord culture, as well.

:shrug:

That might have worked if your only race choice was Nord.

But us Mer aren't as ...simple minded... as the Nords. We should be able to create our own spells!

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:01 am

I didn't read the entire thread, but am I the only one who misses it for the +100 Acrobatics for 1 second, so you can jump up mountainsides and other goofy stuff?

I don't miss the spellcrafting as much as I did and I'm okay without it now.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:08 am

I might have been less upset if they kept all the old spell effects and actually made spells to replace low level ones throughout the game. I don't like using the same firebolt spell for 30 levels :verymad:. They tore magicka to shreds in this game...

Spell making would have done worlds for this game. It is hard to say what the greater loss is though, the loss of the effects or the spell making. A lot of the new spells are just useless to add insult to injury. Runes..... They seem at later levels like something you would put in your buddies bedroom door as a prank, not use in combat. With spell making they would actually have some use.

The limited additions that they made to visuals and methods of casting do not outweigh the loss of effects and spell making.

Same goes for changes to enchanting.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:17 pm

The new system fixes ~~none~~ very few of the old problems and removes all of the fun things found in previous titles.

The guy helming the ship for the magic department needs a swift kick in the pants. There are so many new problems with this magic system that I'd only trust a group of modders to try and fix it over the course of the coming year as opposed to Bethesda trying to makeshift patch it in (or with an expansion). It needs a complete overhaul -- just slapping spellcrafting in at this point will do relatively little to make me like this system any more.

I didn't read the entire thread, but am I the only one who misses it for the +100 Acrobatics for 1 second, so you can jump up mountainsides and other goofy stuff?

I don't miss the spellcrafting as much as I did and I'm okay without it now.

Nobody is for entirely broken systems (at least I don't think they are). That was broken and undermined many facets of the game. It's baffling something like that even made it through Bethesda's Q&A.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:16 am

Hey Bleak if they are going to lock your thread can you post your message here? I think it was a post worthy of discussion and needs to be seen. Sad that it was locked.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:24 pm

Magic looks nice but its extremely boring now.

Tiny spell variety, very few effects, no spell making and badly balanced schools.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Hey Bleak if they are going to lock your thread can you post your message here? I think it was a post worthy of discussion and needs to be seen. Sad that it was locked.

Yes and to think it was a poll, unlike "similar" threads.
Seems trying to be constructive and focusing on a subject for conversation without flaming etc is not appreciated by even the mods

Here's the link mate

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1303444-excusion-of-spell-making-a-bad-developing-decision-and-why/

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:34 pm

There's no underwater combat. :shrug:

And yeah, no spell-making - it was fun, but it's not in this game. And we all move on.

I know! This annoys me because I always seem to get ganged up on by hundreds of slaughterfish.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:02 pm

I don't know where Bethesda got the idea in their heads that taking away spellmaking was a good idea. I've been on the boards long enough to know there weren't any "please take away spellmaking" threads here. I miss spellmaking a lot, more so since Bethesda fubar'd magic. At least if we had spellmaking then we would have a fix. I almost think the total nerfing of mages was dilibrate as you can't strip something this completely by accident. The loss of spellmaking and magic in general is an ugly flaw in an otherwise gem of a game. Bethesda just needs to admit that taking away spellmaking is an idea right up there with New Coke and all that is left to do is pretend it never happend and continue with the way things used to be. We can't be stuck with a demonstrably broken magic system until TES:VI.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:29 pm

BS. The current system isn't complex at all, it just looks flashier. I'd gladly trade everything new about magic just to get spellmaking back.

so you dont like rune spells or even those stream spells? how about the wide area spells that you cast around yourself that do not damage you but instead damage your foes and need i even mention how great wards are for spellswords and mages? none of these would have been possible with spell making which in all seriousness i could compare to a a set of comfortable shackles with inlaid gems. sure it looks great and feels great to but in the end they are shackles. im glad we found the key sure some of us such as yourself will miss those pretty comfy shackles and want them back but in the end you must realize they where only holding magic back.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:04 pm

so you dont like rune spells or even those stream spells? how about the wide area spells that you cast around yourself that do not damage you but instead damage your foes and need i even mention how great wards are for spellswords and mages? none of these would have been possible with spell making which in all seriousness i could compare to a a set of comfortable shackles with inlaid gems. sure it looks great and feels great to but in the end they are shackles. im glad we found the key sure some of us such as yourself will miss those pretty comfy shackles and want them back but in the end you must realize they where only holding magic back.

I am not sure if you are serious or not. If you are this has to be the most delusional post I have read in a long time, but hey keep thinking something as basic as a rune would stop spell making. I feel so free now that I have virtually no options in casting spells or customizing my mage experience.