Without specificity, your post and comment makes no sense. Context, use it. You don't really know what the true scotsman fallacy is do you?

There were a lot of constructive threads on spell making and why it shouldn't be gone and there is always a thread like this around. And should be. This is not "complaining" - it is feedback by those who feel the need to give it about a feature that is gone. Complaining is rational too if the reason is rational.
No, i'm not offended just stating the obvious.
Seriously though you could vent on threads like this : http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1302506-why-mages-svck/ - Now this is "plain ranting/unconstructive complaining" , i'm sure you will agree.
On a side note don't let the complaints get to you so much. If BGS does not have a problem, there is no reason for you to feel bad/insulted.

Anyway, on topic,

We can't rely on modders for this one - sad truth. At least it wouldn't be as good as it would be in vanilla. They would have to make a fairly large project, make effects etc. They could get some effects from scripts but they would not be nearly enough. I hope someone gives it a try though for us PC users.

I love you... so much.....

I love you.

A lot of fans of spell creation that are good with mods, Omega MK comes to mind, have said, from what they have seen it looks like a SC mod could defiantly work. We really need the CK to know how god it could be though.

First - lack of a gameplay feature which offered flexibility and enriched the variety of playstyles shouldn't be excused by lore. If TES VI is on Sommerset Isle would you excuse lack of melee weapons?

Anyway lore-wise you are also wrong. The Winderhold college is a college that dwelves into magic even deeper than the one in the Imperial city. Magic is more freely researched and experiments are it's prominent feature as the npcs mention all the time. It has nothing to be jealous of the other province colleges - on the contrary.

Not to mention how fast Beth is to forgo lore, or even retcon if it suit game play needs, or they just don't take the time to check something.

:facepalm:

Good luck.

Funny how people use lore excuse (they actually just use the Nord's hate for magic) when almost all the college quests are about npcs conducting magic experiments and making new magic spells (like the 2 apprentices quests d'jargo, that chick, and some teachers)! They are even making spells in your face and saying "be careful with your experiments" or "share the benefits of your experiments".

In your context your basically saying that I'm saying that there are two different types of spell creation advocates. True fans and whatever other ones since I didnt specify, since that wasn't the context I wrote it in. Its not some true vs. false Spell Creation partisanship. Its context is the true fan of spell creation, period. Its only opposition is people that are not fans at all of spell creation. not "false" fans of spell creation. Again, context.

I don't really care for spell making but if they did add it back I hope they use a different system than old spell making systems because they were crap. The better development technology gets however the more likely we can get it.

Because they dropped the ball with spell effects not scaling with skill level.

A lot of us thought that would be the case and instead of one thousand and one fire spells we can have one that grows more powerful as we get more experienced at it. The difference will then only be the delivery methods, ie rune, contiunous cast, aoe, touch and so on for strategic purposes.

Without the damage scaling, we are now forced to use only the highest dps spell we have. Any other lower level spells are completely pointless as they do too little damage, even if technically they would have been a more strategic spell under certain conditions.

Yes I know.

In a game like Skyrim, although we loved the feature back in Oblivion, spell creation is sadly not ideal in this environment. Its the way the spell system works, and im assuming that partly the reason was due to the dual casting system, where if spells could be created, it might result in conflicting effects due to the various magnitudes. It might just break the game if there was the ability to make spells, not to mention buying spells tomes would be pointless, just buy the lowest level then craft a godly version out of it. I think a reasonable solution is not spell creation, but spell combining. With the current dual casting system, dual casting adds nothing more than a slightly increased damage output for an unreasonably high mana cost, however when i say spell combining i mean adding spells together of the same or different nature to form a different effect. For example flames + flames = wider arc instead of narrow stream, and ward + frost cloak = frost shield that increases frost resistance and deals small damage as an aoe around the caster. There are limitless possibilies and i know that Bethesda was tossing up the idea themselves, but sadly it didn't see the final product (assuming they thought the current magic system would be enough to impress everyone visually, that there would be no need to add anything else). If there was a spell combining system like this, there would be no reason for people to feel cheated with the lack of spells and customization in the game, and will add so much more immersive and tactical playstyles with mages, instead of casting 1 or 2 spells to win the game.

Btw, there are many very simple ways to make it work with the current system (completely feasible developing-wise) and even make it far more interesting than it was AND keeping current spells "unique".

A few were listed in last nights SC debate in fact. In fact, Ive seen some since before release that would even be feasible,after we've all seen what the new system entails now. And if we can think up ways to implement it, then I figure Beth can as well. Its just if they want to.

And when did I say this thread was complaining?

I was pointing out that complaining is not the best of ideas, and you decided that a positive suggestion was apparently offensive to you. Otherwise, why the remark about my attitude when I was simply pointing out something that's pretty much a fact of life? Let it go.



Depends on the circumstances. Understand me this way: I take it like I would a book: I don't decide how the book should be before I start reading from page one. I simply let the story be and if it's something that I enjoy, it continues to unfold until the book is closed, or else it's tossed aside in favor of something else. It doesn't mean that I don't find fault in the exclusion nor inclusion of things, whatever such things might be given circumstances, but that do not let my expectations dictate whether I should decide to enjoy something or not, just because something was included or removed that was not to my approval for its inclusion/exclusion.



And it's only there. There is no Mages Guild anywhere in the province, and nearly every line of dialogue I've heard regarding it from non-mages has been overwhelmingly negative and disapproving of it. Magic's presence is virtually nonexistent in Skyrim, outside of the College. You have a few mages here and there, and one as a court wizard, and they are all regarded with much suspicion and even outright scorn in some cases.

The main reason why the College of Winterhold is able to practice its magic more freely is because they isolate themselves from the rest of Skyrim as much as possible, and so they are largely left alone, save for their enchanting services. Even many of the mages at the College comment on this, especially Sergius, the enchanter, who often says to my character that were it not for the enchanting services, they would be left completely and utterly alone.

It is marginalized to one of the farthest reaches and corners of the province, as though it were a Mage's Ghetto. In Morrowind and in Cyrodiil, magic was much, much more widely accepted and practiced.

What I meant was that people forget that what apparently constitutes a "true fan" or "true ____" of anything is typically contingent upon the claimant's perspective. Unless you can establish a qualitative measure in as objective a fashion as can be, the concept of a "true fan" of anything is largely a subjective measure from individual to individual, which renders the argument moot because any and all can claim being a "true ____" based upon the qualifications they insist upon.

It's not context, it's a logical fallacy in asserting one's status.

That's it. Good luck.

Its an adjective that's meant to convey the people that used it heavily. Opposed to people that didnt use it at all. No fallacy there. Context of how the word is used man.

And if the only thing you can try to refute in that whole statement was the semantics of an adjective that wasn't even my main point, then I think your the one that needs the luck. Too bad there is no more luck in Skyrim.

While you're arguing logic you should look up the definition of complaining and realize it encompasses everything from the most rigorous arguments to whining.

I find it amusing that people want weapon smithing and enchanting nerfed, but don't like spells being nerfed. You could also create some hideously OP spells in Oblivion as well.... Well, that's what happens when choices and options are removed from the game. More and more vanilla greyness. Not something the "I demand wet nursing" crowd seem to consider in their zeal to have "balance".

No more separate armour pieces. No more spell creation. TES VI... no more enchanting and/or smithing your own weapons.

Only idiots demand choices be removed from the game.

Oh, believe me, I know exactly what you mean. I'm the guy who made a comparison of Skyrim to Fable. There were responses along the line of...

*GASP*
*CHOKE*
*DIE IN AMAZEMENT*
*REVIVE IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE HONOR OF THE ELDER SCROLLS AND TO PUNISH THE HERETIC*

Don't get me wrong, I know they are different games. They play differently. But I also know that there seems to be a lot of similarities, at least, in my view. I stated those supposed similarities. But many did not even try to refute my reasoning. They were just upset that I mentioned the "F" word. But that's how "[censored]" react, especially on internet forums. Maybe that's why game developers have gained a reputation for dumbing things down... because they are targeting an audience with "less common sense" these days, to put it nicely.




I never play a mage-type character, so I never bother with spellmaking. It doesn't affect my "gameplay" any, but the problem is that is does affect my "game." My game has regressed because they removed spellmaking. My game and gameplay has regressed because they have either removed or reduced the scope or quality of many things.

I have absolutely no problem with adding new features to a game. Smithing, for example, although not implemented properly, is a welcome addition. But it should not come at the cost of another feature. There was no reason to actually worsen the way that horse riding works. Going back to Oblivion, there was no reason to remove a working system of crossbows, throwing weapons, and spears. There was no reason to streamline the skills system by combining shortblade and longblade. It was beyond reason to combine axes and blunt skills. The is no reason to go from a 10-piece armor set in Morrowind to a 5-piece set in Skyrim. There was no reason to reduce the amount of choice and depth in dialogue and questlines in order to feature complete and fully voiced actors. There was no reason to downscale the size of cities from Morrowind to Skyrim (just compare Vivec to Solitude). There are no reasons, good ones at least, to do any of that. There are only excuses. Bethesda isn't playing Little League baseball/football where only effort and sportsmanship matters. They are in the big leagues where the only things that matter are performance and winning. Sadly, it seems that they would rather play in a Division II where they can be lazy and the fans won't mind as long as they can get drunk instead of taking pride in what they do and wanting to be the best of the best.

The remark about your attitude was more like "advice" since suggesting that someone is "a cretin" because he said he would complain to get it back, is not the best of responses.

Anyway, to the point - First of all none says "he is not enjoying the game because spellmaking is absent". They say "they would enjoy the game more if spellmaking was there". And they ought to say that since even the developers themselves pay some heed to what fans say. If you choose to treat it like a book - fine i respect that - but don't attack others who "fight" in order to have a more enriched book in their hands.

Yes, magic in Skyrim is shunned. But still there are a lot of outlaw mages and ofc there is the college of Winderhold which is isolated from the rest of the world. The college itself, in which you become an arch-mage has dwelved deeper into magic than other colleges (like the one in the imperial city) allowing even necromancy and experiments. Being isolated has nothing to do with the college's potential/capabilities itself. Npc's themselves are making experiments and create new spells and this shows how "advanced" the college is - it is a downright example of why spell making is lore-friendly. You can't possibly excuse its lack due to lore by "nords hating magic" against all the examples i mentioned.

If you think so, more power to you. I'm not trying to win some internet argument here, I'm trying to point out something to you, and subsequently attempt to explain it to you. The futility of continued action on my part in regards to it is plainly evident, and so I guess you can award yourself an internet point by default. Congratulations.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink it."



Of course, just like how argument is actually another word for a debate.

But most people interpret complaining to be whining, just like most people tend to interpret argument as meaning a very heated exchange.

The actual definitions of those words are much more neutral, but the understanding people commonly apply to such words tends to skew more towards a negative connotation.

The word for that is: Semantics.

And the choir said Amen!

Lol, calm down. Its not that serious. Just read next time.