Incredible how everything fits together, from my point of view, my post made no sense at all, it was just twisted cryptostuff laced together to look like it made sense AND IT WORKED! What if it's metaphorical, because all is part of one, one cannot love oneself without loving all which is oneself, as one is part of all, point of CHIM, but part of everything is also nothing as everything is relative, zero-sum, right? That leads to another question, if it's all there, why on earth can realization change anything?
Inside-joke towards it being a video-game world?

No, it's not metaphorical. And stop repeating yourself with different words.

I personally find the video-game joke idea to be trite. It's way too easy to see.

Zero sum is seeing you don't exist and then doing just that. CHIM is seeing you don't exist but being a selfish enough bastard, or rather, loving yourself so much, that you don't give up your individuality.

I know. Just wanted to get the point across. Mentioning the fractals of the fractals spares confusion that might occur when you just mention the fractals themselves.
Though I hadn't considered the opposites connection; Vivec's hermaphroditic state always escapes my memory.

But male and female aren't opposites. Neither are fire and water. The only true opposites are things like matter and antimatter, and maybe magnetic poles and electrical charge. Maybe.

Or something like love and selfishness. Those are usually mutually exclusive, when both terms are rigorously defined.

How do you know? And no, it's fun.
Sorry if it annoys you.
The post is filler, except this question that you do not want to ansver, how does understanding something make a difference? "Hey, I just realized I'm godly, not we all are, but hey, it's me, you can also realize that you are godly, not everyone is godly, but everyone can realize it, and be godly, to repeat myself..." Do you see how self-contradicting that is? And the silliest thing about it is that in the loveletter it says that to love vivec is to love everything, if I were a citizen of tamriel, I wouldn't give a [censored] about metaphysical meanings, I would not feel that I loved anyone else if I loved that mighty bastard. It seems much more like he's threathening people that if they don't love him, they don't do good to themselves either than that he is everything.

If male and female aren't opposites, neither are Anu and Padomay. You can't get too scientific in the TES Universe or you'll misunderstand like you're already doing.


Because if it was, so much other stuff would be metaphorical. And if you mean metaphorical as in not necessarily true, then you're cheapening TES lore and so much other stuff would not have happened in the TES Universe, like everything.

And if repeating yourself with different words isn't helping you learn anything, then it's really not doing you any good.

If you didn't see that I answered your question, then forgive me for being confused by the fact that you did say the same thing about 7 different ways.

If you look at the fact that if the world is created from the interplay of Anu and Padomay, that is, 1 + -1, then you realize that nothing, that is, Nothing, exists, for 1 + -1 = 0. Think about it a little bit more.

And he is threatening people. And it's far from a bluff.

I mean metaphorical as in that it means something between the lines, not directly what it says.

It helps me reason, I was just writing down my thoughts, not thinking much about what it looke like.
That's not an explanation, I know that, but realizing something doesn't mean anything, if it's there, it's true, if it's there and you have to realize it for it to be true, it's just stupid. After all it cannot be 1+-1, as that would mean the world really doesn't exist, it would be more like a=-b, but the relation between a and b is nothing, even if they would be opposite, so..

Apologies on both accounts then.

I honestly don't know what else to do besides say that this is why CHIM is a difficult idea/task.

You can turn that upside down. Rather then assuming that something exists regardless of observation - tricky already. Suppose that a realisation can be something dangerous. Et'Ada eat the Dreamer shows that it's possible to vaporize through realisation. What sort of universe would allow that to be?

Unless of course, the world really doesn't exist... :ph34r:

You sorta kinda in a way answered your own opposition.

The kind that is a trick of possibility.

:turtle:

And with that statement you will never understand mysticism.

Zing!

CHIM is probably a hidden doctrine on Tamriel, known only to a relative few. I guess even if someone on Tamriel tried to explain it to others, it still wouldn't be the same as enlightenment. I'm not sure how mortals other than the Nerevarine and the Tribunal can achieve enlightenment, though. At the same time, I think it was MK who said CHIM is not Nirvana.

Liar? Leech? Murderer?

"This is not the landfall you are looking for" sounds more like "Oh hey, your rampant speculation wasn't actually spot-on" than saying that it hasn't happened. I beleive it has happened. Some people don't like the way it happened, and all I have to say there is to get over it.

Wasn't talking about MK's post.

<_<

I will not understand it, the idea of mysticism by realization is straight against all the ways I see things. I could justify this for myself by saying it's a fantasy world, but that would destroy the rest of it for me, because that would mean(for me) that you can just throw in random weird things with no ground AT ALL and declare them mystical to make new lore.

As for the questions, ansvered

Something being 'mystical' is unnrelated to something dealing with mysticism. Of course, if you concede that you will not understand mysticism its only natural that you will not understand why such things may not be random and may in fact have more ground than the ground. :lightbulb:

:turtle:

I meant with "mystic" that mysticism doesn't make any sense to me at all, it just is there, same would be (for me) if something else was added in the same way, "Hey, let's make relization matter a lot, so it can lead to godhood" that's what it looks like to me, I'm sure it's more complicated, but it boils down to that.
I have tried to understand those kinds of things, but it's just common sense that raw knowledge alone is worthless. I'm the kind of person that has to understand something to learn about it, someone can tell me God exists, fine, I might listen to that as there isn't any proof against it either, and it's a good thought, but telling me that realizing something could elevate me to a higher form of being? Psychic powers? :lmao:

To be honest, you won't get too far in learning the lore then.

:shrug:

This is true. Its just as fundamental to TES as magick (literally):

"Your imagination and your willpower are the keys. There is no need for a spell to give you a resistance to air, or a resistance to flowers, and after you cast the charm, you must forget there is even a need for a spell to give you resistance to fire. Do not confuse what I am saying: resistance is not about ignoring the fire's reality. You will feel the substance of flame, the texture of it, its hunger, and even the heat of it, but you will know that it will not hurt or injure you... Fear does not break spells, but doubt and incompetence are the great enemies of any spellcaster."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/2920.shtml#4

This is a good non-CHIM example. There is a realization here that accompanies the spell; the mindset is part of the magick. If you can understand this quotation then there's hope you will understand CHIM.

Ever wonder why Altmer have a high weakness to magick while Orcs have a resistance to it? Could it be because the Orcs are too stupid to know that the magick is supposed to hurt them? While the Altmer are convinced of its lethality?

I think I get that :huh: Mostly.

The last part makes perfect sense though, I had never thought of magicka as anything other than altering physical substance or energy. But if it depends on the perception of the castee, then that changes things completely. Or is it something like using magic makes you more open to it?

Lore has started to get a lot more interesting recently


EDIT: Would that resistance bit have anything to do with zero summing, by any chance? The fire standing for knowing the 1 + -1 = 0, not ignoring it, but knowing that you still exist? Just a wild guess that I thought of while trying to explain zero summing to someone. Thanks.

I think that I, argumenting dug myself into a ditch I can't come out of. I have been contradicting myself, and I feel that I make less sense to myself for every new post I try to discuss with. I sometimes do things impulsively, this is a great example, so to remake my argument:
I have problems understanding how realization can change anything all by itself, or as described, already is true, that leads to the question what really is true, because it seems everything is, can realization change the world, yet still not change it?

That sums it up, forget previous arguments, please.

And for the magic issue, is that truly proof for this? Is the magic the cast spell, or confidence, because if it was confidence(realization to compare) a madman would be the most powerful being on nirn because he believes he is immortal. And that is not true, so I do think more that that confidence in the spell is what gives the mage the ability to use the spell, in the moral of that you should not try something, but do it. As far as I know the spell is not already there, and realizing that it exists isn't what makes it real.

Just in terms of the realization, the dream anology that often accompanies CHIM is of use, especially since you've probably experienced it.

A dream becoming lucid is really just the realization that you are dreaming, but with that realization you gain the power to change the dream. You couldn't change the dream before this realization, you didn't know you were dreaming and therefore you were powerless.

That alone is an argument for the power of a realization. If you want to go a step further, ponder what would happen if one of the other characters in your dream became self-aware... :ninja:

:turtle:

I think I've gotten the point now, thank you

And that isn't trite?

"Individualism" triumphs over all because... "selfishness" is awesome?

I can't think of any 'philosophy of selfishness' that doesn't "zero-sum" and disappear up its own [censored].