The Loveletter : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:05 am

He said the book is "the right kind of crazy."

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:07 am

No, he's given no opinion about the book. That quote was directed at Keyes as an author.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:40 am

Regarding the Loveletter, I think I'll take it with a grain of salt for now.

Compare MK to August Derleth, H.P. Lovecraft's successor to the Mythos. Having an intimate understanding of a subject doesn't always translate to an understanding of where that subject's going. Indeed, Lovecraft would turn in his grave if he saw some of the additions Derleth made to the Mythos (incorporating his own Catholic worldview into its writing, for example).

This isn't an attack on MK, or his writing, but for the time being I shall classify the Loveletter as exceptionally well-informed, well-written fanfiction.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:56 pm

how can it be fanfic if Keyes, the official writer of the official, up to date lore looked at it and used it in the book? MK is more like Lovecraft if he suddenly decided to go write romance novels instead, and came back once in a while to work on his old mythos wile Derleth was working on them too.

Attrebus, since youre reading the topic: what is your first hand view of the landfall?

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:49 am

how can it be fanfic if Keyes, the official writer of the official, up to date lore looked at it and used it in the book? MK is more like Lovecraft if he suddenly decided to go write romance novels instead, and came back once in a while to work on his old mythos wile Derleth was working on them too.

Attrebus, since youre reading the topic: what is your first hand view of the landfall?

Yes, I suppose you're right. Regardless, I'll hold on to my trepidation for a bit.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:12 am

how can it be fanfic if Keyes, the official writer of the official, up to date lore looked at it and used it in the book? MK is more like Lovecraft if he suddenly decided to go write romance novels instead, and came back once in a while to work on his old mythos wile Derleth was working on them too.

Attrebus, since youre reading the topic: what is your first hand view of the landfall?

I like MK's writing, but the official line has always been "If it's not in the games, then it's not official lore". I'm sure that extends to official books as well, so the Infernal City version is more official than the MK love letter.

From the sounds of it, MK knows the path that has been mapped out, and probably helped define the future direction. However, what he helped define might not be what Bethesda is going to use. (I don't know how much contact MK and Bethesda have in regards to the future direction of The Elder Scrolls world, so I can't really comment).

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:21 am

Hmm... but if he's an ex-beth employee, then I don't see how what he says can be considered lore.

Because creating a large portion of the lore says nothing at all.

<_<

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:48 pm

I might as well jump on this train since there's one point you're missing.

MK was a high-detail developer during the formative (and tentative) years of the series. Not only did he write and was privy to the lore that Beth doesn't let out of its Filing Cabinet of Doom, but he also has a general sense of where everything was leading. While he might not have known the terminology of Tower/Stone when they were sketching out the early versions of Morrowind (before they even produced Battlespire and Redguard), but you can definitely tell that there was this desire to destablize Tamriel through the actions of previous games until it all came to a head later, what with establishing how Akatosh essentially covers, fixes, and protects Tamriel from anything that might try to break it too hard.

Because he's kinda babyish, if it doesn't "look" right, then it must not taste right so he won't eat it. So if the timeline or physics gets really badly messed with (like gods walking upon the world tend to do) he breaks, and his Jills mess with things until he likes it again.

Just to make in interesting.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:08 am

I like MK's writing, but the official line has always been "If it's not in the games, then it's not official lore". I'm sure that extends to official books as well, so the Infernal City version is more official than the MK love letter.

From the sounds of it, MK knows the path that has been mapped out, and probably helped define the future direction. However, what he helped define might not be what Bethesda is going to use. (I don't know how much contact MK and Bethesda have in regards to the future direction of The Elder Scrolls world, so I can't really comment).

however, its still a step (or two, or three) above fan fic.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:14 pm

agreed, however, its still a step (or two, or three) above fan fic.

Well, the things described in the books are not seen in-game. So I don't know, may as well give it that level since the obscure texts are all written by people who wrote a share of in-game books anyways.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:40 pm

Obscure texts aren't officially released by Bethesda, so aren't officially lore. They are above fan fiction, because generally the writers are privy to information fans don't have access to. They aren't on the same level as officially released material, because, it's officially released. This is either in-game, or in official books and stories.

So, the hierarchy is:

1. Officially released material.
2. Obscure text released by devs or ex devs.
3. Fan fiction.

You cannot argue that anything printed in Obscure texts is more accurate than anything officially released, because Bethesda might have changed it.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:59 am

"Officialness" and "canonicity" are very different things. Just look at midichlorians.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:05 am

"Officialness" and "canonicity" are very different things. Just look at midichlorians.

Could you say more about this? I know the midichlorians were in SW of course.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:31 pm

Basically, its the notion that force powers arise from microorganic parasites rather than mental/spiritual properties of individuals who become jedi. George Lucas introduced it and "fandom" at large rejects it.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:51 am

Obscure texts aren't officially released by Bethesda, so aren't officially lore. They are above fan fiction, because generally the writers are privy to information fans don't have access to. They aren't on the same level as officially released material, because, it's officially released. This is either in-game, or in official books and stories.

So, the hierarchy is:

1. Officially released material.
2. Obscure text released by devs or ex devs.
3. Fan fiction.

You cannot argue that anything printed in Obscure texts is more accurate than anything officially released, because Bethesda might have changed it.

This. MK's writing is obviously quite a few steps above fanfiction, but just a mite bit short of canon.

So, would it be considered "fanon"?

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:00 pm

Basically, its the notion that force powers arise from microorganic parasites rather than mental/spiritual properties of individuals who become jedi. George Lucas introduced it and "fandom" at large rejects it.

Rejects it? Really? That I did not know. Anything George makes is canon no matter how much you hate it.
As for MK's writings, I have always more-or-less considered them canon, though I know they are not. But with parts of The Loveletter being used in the canon book, I'm glad to see they are being taken in to consideration.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:31 pm

This. MK's writing is obviously quite a few steps above fanfiction, but just a mite bit short of canon.

So, would it be considered "fanon"?

How can you be a fan of your own writing?

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:58 am

How can you be a fan of your own writing?

The continued lore of the Elder Scrolls universe is no longer his own - it's like building a house, and selling it soon after. You can't just barge into the house whenever you like, just because you built it. It has new owners, and they will inhabit it for better or worse.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:13 pm

no, its like building a house, selling it, and then frequently being invited to dinner to discuss the house's structure and potential renovation ideas.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:20 am

I'm not going to torture a metaphor. It's still his writing no matter who owns the rights to distribute it. Which is really what irks me about discussions about canon. It's mostly about ownership, not authorship. The latter is the only person qualified to actually elaborate on his ideas.

But never mind that, all the other arguments why it's a non-issue have been outlined in previous posts already.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:36 pm

no, its like building a house, selling it, and then frequently being invited to dinner to discuss the house's structure and potential renovation ideas.

I'm not going to torture a metaphor. It's still his writing no matter who owns the rights to distribute it. Which is really what irks me about discussions about canon. It's mostly about ownership, not authorship. The latter is the only person qualified to actually elaborate on his ideas.

But never mind that, all the other arguments why it's a non-issue have been outlined in previous posts already.

I think Lady N's metaphor works best, considering he keeps doing stuff that gets put in the games and/or referenced directly by "full" canon.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:24 pm

no, its like building a house, selling it, and then frequently being invited to dinner to discuss the house's structure and potential renovation ideas.

Exactly!

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:35 am

MK might not be on the payroll anymore, but he still contributes most of the lore.

So for the metaphorL

He is the house, or at least one of the rooms.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:26 pm

MK might not be on the payroll anymore, but he still contributes most of the lore.

Just a picky.

And it's not quite accurate that MK is an ex-dev. He still is contracted out for work; he wrote most of the Knights of the Nine literature in Oblivion and will more than likely be contracted again for future ES titles.

» Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:28 am

MK is a freelance warrior-poet, whom apparently is viewed favorably by the current devs and often consulted on matters of lore. He's not the end-all and be-all of lore of course but he's within the big four or five people decisions come down to I would imagine. I wouldn't be amazed if he had a little input in the new novels as well, as certain passages echo with the hint of his voice.