Maybe he did, but either way Keyes reads.

It's part of being one among many authors of a single continuous series.

This page is full of whit.

A warrior-poet? maybe he was the insparation for Vivec

MK created him.

The Force isn't the midi-chlorians themselves, the midi-chlorians simply allow one to tap into the Force.

very intersesting on a STAR WARS lore page.

TES isn't star wars/star trek/whatever comic universe.

There's no 'official' answer to nerdarguments over Oblivion 'retconing' Morrowind 'retconing' Daggerfall etc.

Everything in the games is official, even when it contradicts. The book by Greg Keyes is just a book written about TES, it's no more (or less) official than any of the in game books. Ditto for MK posts. Just look at them as more 'in game' books.


Let's take the biggest 'issue': is Cyrodiil really a jungle? I mean surely it isn't because Morrowind is older and if this was star trek the newer thing would 'retcon' the lore etc, well the answer is no... and yes.

They are both right... and both completely wrong if you take the games literally (imagining the Continent of Tamriel is 8 miles across, or 50 people live in the imperial city, or whatever).


Basically TES games don't 'show' the TES world, they are about the TES world. There's no clear obvious answer on what's right anymore than there is when you're trying to reconcile historical documents... in fact much less so when you're trying to piece together a universe that has dragon breaks, reverse causation and ideas can become individuals and vice versa.

At the same time, Keyes must have had to clear his ideas with Bethesda. We're probably seeing the seeds of Tamriel as it will be portrayed in TES V.

Based on this and what Attrebus said about games and books taking hierarchy over everything else, isn't the Love Letter proven wrong? Unless I'm mistaken, didn't Landfall happen in the novel and all the happened was Vvardenfel was destroyed? Doesn't the book completely void anything the Love Letter said then?

Not really. The very fact that Landfall occurs is an affirmation of the Loveletter. Nowhere in the Loveletter proper does it specifically state all that Landfall will affect. The very concept of Landfall is found nowhere else but the Loveletter (iirc); it was our first introduction to the idea.

About compadability between the Loveletter and the Novel.

all the loveletter says is like pre-landfall, and the destruction of landfall, etc. He does say that is supposedly destoyed the wrld, but that he (and at least three cities) are still alive. This could just mean that it destroyed Dunmeri way of life.

To the Dunmer, Morrowind WAS their world.

And a lot of MW fans. Well, I would be considered one, but I thought it was a much needed change.

The bottom line, in my humble opinion, is that "canon" is the lore than makes it into official media like games or books.

Now, that point might seem a little redundent in light of the conversation at hand - however, I think it still bears repetition. MK may be a valuable contributer to TES lore, but if his work doesn't make it into some sort of official media, how could it possibly be considered canon? Some of it makes it in (Knights of the Nine lore), and some of it doesn't (potentially, the Loveletter). My point is, MK's position as a key lore writer doesn't mean that all of his work becomes canon. That's the summation of this argument, right?

Yeah, pretty much. This isn't about stiffling "outside" sources of lore though. Understand Bethesda has new lore, because it's evolved from official and unofficial sources. Is lore that's still in Bethesda's "master codex" unofficial? Yes. I would wisely disregard the words official and unofficial all together. What does official mean? A company says its ok to believe this but not this, even though they may svck eggs. This is Mundus!

You are correct in a very technical sense. Whatever does not appear in official games or official books/media is not official. But the true point here is that officiality in this sense is virtually irrelevant in terms of canonicity.

Once again, I bring up the case of the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/census_daedra.shtml This was written for the Pocket Guide to the Empire v3 that came with collector's editions of Oblivion, yet it was cut due to length constraints, not due to content. So it is now an obscure text and is technically unofficial because it does not appear within the games or within official media. But does that make it truly any less accurate or canon?

Or what about little things like http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosades_visit.shtml? Ken Rolston, lead designer of Oblivion, posted that, and is that now inaccurate and untrustworthy simply because it doesn't appear within a game or an official medium? It's not hugely affecting anything; it's not quite of the magnitude of the Loveletter. It's simply a servant of the Empire paying his respects, which doesn't contradict anything official. And it was, again, posted by Oblivion's lead designer.

And the final point is that most of the core information that is extracted out of MK's obscure-text work can also be extracted out of his in-game work with a bit more effort. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml as compared to http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml, as an example.

I think we can both agree that any addition to TES lore should be examined on a case by case basis, and never dismissed out of hand. That being said, I think that discussing the validity of the Loveletter as opposed to accepting it immediately as canon is the best possible route towards gaining legitimacy. Of course, no one questions the value of a good debate.

If you do indeed want to go with the "Landfall destroyed Tamriel" interpretation of the Loveletter, then get ready for a nice, simple, easy retcon that makes very easy sense:

The Loveletter came from the fifth era presumably before Landfall happened. The Letter was recieved, and important scholars saw this and wanted to remedy it, creating the project of the ingenium, designed to keep Ban Dar up and, over time, gently let it down. In the time that the Ingenium was running, it reduced its velocity enough that it only obliterated only a part of Tamriel.

Honestly, doesn't anyone know about time-travel?

The difference is that with Star Wars, Star Trek etc you need a 'canon' policy because the movies/whatever actually show what happened. You aren't looking at a movie 'of' Star Wars, you're literally looking at Han Solo doing what he did etc. You're not looking at Harrison Ford in a movie about something that happend in the Star Wars universe, you're looking at the actual thing.

Whereas that's not the case at all in the Elder Scrolls, obviously.

When it's said "everything in the games is official" and ditto for MK posts, all that means is the existance of the in game books is official. Not that what the books say is the "truth".

It just means (for example) in the Elder Scrolls universe there officially is a book called "The real barenziah" of which you see excerpts in game.

So with The Loveletter, when we say it's "official" what that means is the "Loveletter from the fith era" exists in the TES universe not that the things it describes are "canon".


See the difference? The lore in TES is always from someones point of view, so there doesn't need to be a "canon".

Not to mention the super-malleable nature of Time when it is, in fact, a living being. That idea works just fine, or just go with the "To a Dunmer, there is no intended difference between the ideas 'world will be destroyed' and 'Morrowind will be destroyed.'"

Or just go with the fact only mer are mentioned in the letter. :shrug:

This is all fascinating to me. I don't know that the Loveletter is as clear-cut as you all seem to think (after all, look who wrote it). I think many details are being conveniently glossed over in the rush to make it mean what you want it to mean.

What details, may I ask?

Actually, MD, the Loveletters were made well after Landfall, as a warning to those living in the newly entered 4th era about its coming and the lessons of love.