You can't play how you want though because certain schools of magic are more overpowered than others. If I want destruction to my basis for attack I can't complete the game without using cheap exploits like the impact perk that just cheapen the whole experience. If I want to be a mage I have to use conjuration to succeed. I'm pretty sure warrior types would get pissy if swords and axes stopped being effective halfway through the game and instead had to switch to using bow and arrows

Exactly. How anyone can say that having a skill level up and make you worse off is a good or acceptable thing is beyond me. It's totally moronic to argue otherwise

Good post. For some reason, people just LIKE to complain....

And yet, I dominate with just my Skysteel Greatsword, Fur Armor, and Iron Gauntlets of Sure Grip. No armor perks, no block perks. Just two-handed perks. No other trees perked, except one in Smithing and a few experimental perks scattered about, such as two in Destruction because I was too impatient to wait to get the Firebreath shout, and wanted to super-charge my Flames.

Noone has ever stated you should be able to get through on one school of magic. What people are saying if you actually listen is that because destruction doesn't scale it actually makes you worse off putting levels and perks into it. This makes it useless. And how are warriors specializing in different forms of combat? 'Run in with sword and smash with sword/axe/hammer' are not different schools, they are just different names for the same type of weapon. No different from fire, lightning and ice based magic attacks

Haha see this is what I am talking about. I DO play how I want. I play a mage with Destruction as my primary offensive. It doesn't mean that its easy. If it was easy and all the same it would cheapen the experience. You say you cant complete the game without using cheap exploits, but is this type of game ever "complete"?

Play the game to experience something different. Adapt to your surroundings. Stop trying to justify everything and just for once...role-play.

You actually found the issue allready. Its WoW and its "balance" mentality players.

No it's not the same because it's not what people are saying. If I use destruction as attack it's useless as I increase in level. Me using destruction as attack, alteration as armour and restoration as health buffer is no different from you using a sword, shield and armour. Difference is you'll be fine, I'll be [censored] past level 20

The issue is that Destruction Magic doesn't have firepower at higher levels. I compare Destruction to my two-handed Sword skill and Skysteel Greatsword. I don't need armor or block perks, because I have enough hitpoints to take whatever survives my Radius of Death long enough to get a strike, before I kill them anyway.

Archers can take out enemies from a range in a matter of moments with their bow without any need for non-archery perks.

Destruction Mages, on the other hand, take forever to kill a single target. When you can kill faster with a bow at 15-20 Archery than you can with magic at 100 Destruction, the argument that Destruction's range makes up for it becomes irrelevant. If you kill faster in melee with a sword and skill of less than 20 vs. Destruction of 100, then there's also a problem.

As I level up my Two-handed Sword skill, I become more powerful, and enemies die faster despite their own growth in power.

As I level up my Destruction spells, enemies become more powerful, while I gain the ability to throw what amount to pillows slightly more often. You get weaker as you become "More Powerful". That's the problem.

The problem is that Destruction magic doesn't live up to its name.

Um, you do realize there are stronger bandits right? If you fight a Dreadlord and complain he's tougher than a regular Draugr...you shouldn't be playing.

Theres no balance in single player games, in oblivion be a archer are inviable withght mods, thats a issue(if you cant play the way you want becouse its to weak and frustrating). In skyrim everything is viable, you can finish the game using what you want. So thats great the games is balanced for me.

Ofocurse you cant make exploited magic here, but who cares just play, you can be a mage and have fun. In oblivion you cant have fun with a archer 10 arrow to kill one guy.

What level are you at?

Saying 'this type of game is never complete' is moving the goalposts, not answering a question. How do you adapt to your surroundings while using destruction as offense then? And if you use the words conjuration or illusion your argument is null and void as that would be like saying I use a sword every once in a while as my companions kill everything

Definitely too much of a MMORPG mentality going on wrt balancing. Like you say (Op), ultimately it shouldn't matter in a single player game. I agree as well tbh, I liked the fact that you could obtain overpowered weaponry in Morrowind so longas it was MY CHOICE.

However, it does matter in a game like this, and has mattered long before MMOs ever existed.

Destruction should remain a viable skill throughout the game. Instead, it's a perk "trap".

We're not complaining that Melee and Archery are OP because of the Smithing/Enchanting exploits. The complaint is that a person with ~ 50 points in a melee skill, adequate perk investment for that point, and a decent weapon he picked up off the ground somewhere is capable of handling all encounters better than a level 50 Destruction Mage.

Normally, magic's supposed to be good against large numbers of relatively weak opponents at range. However, the sword at half skill level is superior in this instance because it takes less time and risk to just run up and smack Everything until it's all dead.

My build is a simple one, I chose a few limitations for myself.

I don't use a shield.
I use only one handed blades.
I use destruction magic.

This means, no blocking.

I use the destruction spells as a "buff" of sorts, frostbite is great for slowing down my opponents so I can inflict more damage whilst being able to maneuver to avoid being hit. As I am primarily a warrior, I do not use any points on my Magika stat during level up, so it is still 100pts. This means I have to use my spells wisely.

Being a mage is no different. All out destruction magic as an offense isn't an option - just as using a shield as an offensive weapon isn't an option for a warrior. You need to combine it and use it with a strategy for it to be useful. Used like this, it is fine.
To say that you want to play in a way that is not viable just because that's what you want is fine, you can do that but you need to accept the fact that things will be difficult. Just as I have with my build. I do die, I do have to turn tail and run, I do have to think about what I'm doing because I will get killed. That's the beauty of this system.

Sure, I could build a godlike warrior. But what fun is that? I might as we use TGM and go for broke.

Offtopic, is it possible that magic is the way it is in Skyrim due to the lack of interest in it lore wise?

Thanks to the OP for a post I couldn't be bothered of writing myself; it's sometimes very difficult to have a constructive diskussion in this board, at least what I recall from the Oblivion period. When I occasionally browse these boards I sometimes can't help but think Bethesta's greatest failure is parts of their forum community. There simply is such a vast amount of complaints I simply can't relate to.

I agree fully about the balance 'issue'. I have played several styles but rather see differences in style, than power balance.

This has nothing to do with mmo balancing. im hell as a dual wielding warrior i just stand and laught at the dragons, none of them have ever been a challenge for me. they have all died in 1 or 2 power attacks and that was with without having the OP enchanting/smithing/alchemy thing going on. You know all those Draugr Deathlords you face before Alduin...HAH no threat at all they all die in 1 power attack oh Alduin himself was dead before the so called OP ALLies got to him. Being able to walk around and one or 2 shot a mob your level is ok when the stars align but not every [censored] creature.

Playing on the default normal Difficulty should not mean i walk around one shotting everything as a warrior, and to think that balance isnt needed in a single player game, that just downright stupid. If there is no challenge then you grow bored extremely quickly oh and try telling a New vegas player that engery weapons should of stayed at their vannila state along with those that favored shotguns. both types of weapons were down right worthless to use because how they worked with Damage thresold. and its Down right crazy that in skyrim leveling your magic skills only decreases the mana cost while weapons and armour get their damage and damage reduction increased as their skills increase. Add in that the dual casting isnt giving a big enought benifit to use it ove the increased mana cost and the lack of + spell damage/ spell effectiviness enchants

Op makes some good points , its not about balance as such but each skill needs to be useful , the more useful trees there are the more diffrent characters and skills i can try. I dont care if destruction or alteration arent as good as some other skills but they do need to function or they need changing.

edit- poster above me makes a good point , if a skill is too poweful its the same as being useless to me as its not worth using . Great if you like min/maxing or have fun with a super character but thats not my cup of tea. Suppose you could argue thats what the difficulty slider is there for but would still hope bethesda tweak the trees that are too poweful or too weak. Then i can enjoy all the skills.

I have no idea what game you guys are playing, even with pretty high One Handed I can't kill a dragon in a few hits. It takes me, a follower and a horse about 3-5 minutes to kill a dragon.

So glitch in the game?

don't forget to take into account 'the exaggeration factor'

Seems to be a problem on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iustEOBw5EI

That's a guy with 60 One handed, dual wielding and fighting a dragon. One hit my ass, I'm sick of liars.

But at the same time the warrior is in the danger zone with no stamina getting his ass beat while you're a safe distance away with stamina left to run.

Just wanted to make one small point; this statement is incorrect.

In order to make a successful ranged snipe Archery does require good sneak; and points in sneak to avoid detection while gaining the greater crit multiplier. Without either of these perks: the first arrow will do significant damage (and if you are quick a followup can sometimes dispatch normal enemies) to the first target but generally will not outright kill them. And without Archery 50+ (Stagger), 70+ (Quick Draw / Ranger); the moment you enter real combat you are fairly well screwed unless you have a backup weapon / magic.

The rest of your information is fairly sound.

Mages in this edition of TES just have a different play style. You need to branch out and support your primary school. I can't just make a touch spell that drain's vitality and HP to 1 for 1 second, then do 1 point of damage (all effects with 50ft radius) for an instant kill on everything like I could in Oblivion.

The game is far more gear based than you might like. What weapon are you using?

I finally decided to go and "back up" my previous arguments by conducting an experiment last night.

I made a new character, got out of the starting area using trash skills, and used the console to advance enchanting, alchemy, and smithing to 100. Assigned perks as needed for "perfect crafting" of heavy armour. I disenchanted the right gear so as to get fortify alch, fortify heavy armour, fortify smithing, and fortify one handed. I then proceeded to loop through crafting fortify enchant potions to make better fortify alchemy gear, until I hit diminishing returns. I then made fortify smithing potions, and fortify smithing/alchemy gear. I crafted daedric armour and improved it while buffed with +130% fortify smithing potions, and various +smithing gear pieces. I then took that gear, necklace, and amulet, and enchanted them with +heavy armour/+one handed/+blocking, and damage enchants to weapon.

Final output: 700+ armour, 190 weapon damage.
This character had no skillups in one handed weapons (was using a daedric longsword), and no skillups in heavy armour or block.

Then, I took the same base character (before using console to boost enchant, smithing, and alchemy), and advanced heavy armour, block, and one handed weapons to 100. Assigned perks as needed. I then added "base" daedric gear through the console.

Final output: 380+ armour, 40+ weapon damage

The "skill" character was categorically "weaker" than the "crafting" based character. I don't mind that crafting can lead to truly powerful outputs (for fun, mixing the two gave 2291 armour, 240 attack, still "weak" by most standards). What I dislike is that its nearly 100% better than going the "skill" route. I'd be fine with 10-50%, as it still is "hard" to achieve the crafting output (that's alot of ingredients/soul gems to use).

The point is, a player shouldn't have to know they're gimping themselves if they try to play in a "fluid" manner. At least, not by this much. "Don't play that way" does not excuse this fact.

I'm saying the mentality of 'must balance game!' exists. It's likely come about because of the proliferation of games like WoW & Eve-Online since the last Bethesda game was released. Because MMORPG's are multiplayer, everyone wants an equal chance to win. This has never mattered in single player games because there is no other human involved laughing at your ineptitude.

No-one was banging on about balance 5-10 years ago when Oblivion and Morrowind were released. You either used powerful stuff or you didn't. I mean do people want Bethesda to wipe their arses for them too? (Actually, don't answer that question).