Skyrim is closer, but the maps show that desposits go down mostly on a roughly north/south axis. And if the rock hits Vivec, essentially south of Red Mountain, we can expect the debris to be particularly bad in that direction

Yeah, but for all we know Black marsh could be thousands of miles away from Vvardenfell, there's no exact distance given. So it's not illogical at all to say that Black Mash wasn't effected.

Actually, you could give yourself a rough estimate on how far Black Marsh is from Vvardenfel using some maps with a scale. Why, I was able to estimate that Red Mountain was roughly half the size of Olympus Mons on Mars (lengthwise)

Oh please. We have at least a rough idea of the dimensions of Morrowind, and having the Black Marsh border "thousands of miles away", which is contrary to just about any information we have, would make it not precisely credible that the Argonians would conquer such a huge realm. As I said, you can come up with all kinds of excuses. Problem is they are just that: excuses

As it stands, the more credible maps would mean that the central parts of Morrowind would have to dig out of the ashes for quite a while if we just compare with the eruption of Mount Saint Helens -and that's neither taking into account the size of Red Mountain vs. Mt. Saint Helens nor the impact of the rock. And the Argonians would have to wade into that ash sea (not really the optimal environment for deploying an army) to conquer. They'd have their own logistics severely hampered. And again, that's assuming that the ash cloud doesn't even extend all the way into Black Marsh. In Ritzville, 200 miles from Mt Saint Helens, they had calculated roughly 350 tons of ash per acre. And we're talking here Dunmer without caterpillars and dump trucks but at best some massive use of magic by those capable of doing so. Expect most of the beasts of burden either buried by ash or crushed by the roofs of their stables.

Now if we take the super-collossal eruption of Mt. Tambora in 1815 as a gauge, the effects would be much more dramatic, including a "year without a summer" and crop failures in pretty much all of Tamriel, with Morrowind being pitch dark for two days and the eastern half of Tamriel being blanketed in ash.

Cool. Very interesting.



Relax, dude, it's no big deal. And either way, it's already written in stone and we can't change it, so we might as well go with it.

I second that.

Not to mention the dunmer WERE stagnant.

First of all, if one doesn't complain about low quality, why should people strive to improve what they deliver? Not to mention that it nicely panders to gamer cliché: Hey, they're all just kids glued to their computer, what do they know about what a volcano eruption looks like? I prefer being treated with a bit more respect.
Second, even if Bethesda said the books are going to be canon, there is plenty of opportunity to revise that decision until the next game is out. Heck, they've explained away their own stuff in the past.

Are you just mad that Morrowind got nuked? Lets not beat around the bush here.

That is correct, if you go by real world physics, which admitably don't have much bearing in a world where people can summon fire from their hands and the stars and sun are just holes in space and not giant balls of superheated gas, an object that size could probably do a fair amount of damage if it fell at the velocities it must have been traveling at befoe Vivec froze it, I'm not sure if it's really plausible for it to cause Red Mountain to erupt with enough force to destroy Morrowind or not, but the writer clearly thought it was. We must also consider that since Morrowind's world is somewhat smaller than Vvardenfell would be in lore, it may be that the Ministry of Truth has also had its size reduced, I don't really know.

I'd miss Balmora.
Everything else can go to hell.

If I was, why would I point out that Black Marsh should be devastated as well? I'm mad that the author has to resort to contrived circumstances to make his story happen the way it does. It is said Red Mountain erupted, but in the end, it belched and farted at most if the devastation is as restricted.
If I'm mad that Morrowind got nuked then because it was ONLY Morrowind that got nuked and that the sole reason this is the case is because the author would have to scrap large parts of his plot otherwise.

It's like wanting to tell a story about a guy reaching the center of the earth and then realizing : "Oh wait, the real center of the Earth is super-hot. Well, in my story, I'll simply posit super-hot things don't hurt anyone. Hm, but he'd also have to chip through an awful lot of rock to get to the center of the earth. He'll never make it in his lifetime. Oh well, I'll just make it so the earth is made of cheese and the core is molten cheddar, so he can eat his way all the way through".

Hilarious, yes. But only as humour. If he tried to pass it off as a serious story, people would boggle just as much. Of course an author has every right to claim whatever he wants to be the case in his story. But the reader has every right to call the story nonsense in return. The point is quite simply this: He could have claimed there was a massive geological event in Morrowind. Or he could have claimed that the Argonians invaded. As much as it might seem reasonable to use the disarray among the Dunmer for invasion, there would also be disarray in a country being nuked back into the stone age. Invading such a country still doesn't make sense. Or, to speak with a science fiction example that's actually very pertinent: If someone is bombing your next door neighbor with mass drivers from orbit, what do you do? No, you don't jump to the occasion and invade. You run like hell in the other direction. If he wanted the Dunmer to be in upheaval so that the Argonians have a chance at resounding success, he should have used other means.

Just say it, are you angry that Morrowind got nuked? Yes or no.

Also, we don't really know how far the devastation went, or how it affected all the other places only that Vvardenfell is nothing but a smoldering island, and the dunmer have been driven out by the argonians when they were really weakened and took the marshlands of southern Morrowind (most likely the contested pieces of land). Nothing outside of that has been mentioned, and why should it? It's not that integral to the story at the moment, especially since Vivec was visited at the very end of the first book in a two part series. That is all we know. Lie Rock landed on Vivec, caused tsunamis (most likely hitting the mainland south of Vvardenfell) and Red Mountain erupted (which is roughly half the size of Olympus Mons on Mars). Sul was cast into Oblivion just moments before Lie Rock fell, so he wouldn't know how bad the damage was until he got out of Oblivion, and even then explaining what happened to all of Morrowind isn't really relevant, only that the dunmer were driven to Solstheim by argonians when they were weakened. Skyrim doesn't matter, as it's a land not a part of the story, part of the Cyrodiilic empire, nor in the story's interest/relevance.

Plus, you don't seem to realize how much the argonians harbored so much hatred towards the dunmer. The dunmer have been attacking and enslaving them ever since they arrived, which is roughly three thousand years of constant pot-shots and mini-invasions. During the Crisis, Black Marsh, being the really inhospitable land it is, was able to come out really strong during the invasion (confirmed pre-Infernal City) due to how inhospitable the very land is (another reason why the dunmer preyed on the outer areas of northern BM), and the argonian's fervor. Morrowind, on the other hand, was being wrecked by the Crisis, their mortal gods died and disappeared, and the houses with most of the military might (Redoran and Indoril) were under heavy decay and decline. Even the Telvanni had problems shutting down the gates. Not to mention Redoran was under siege by the nords before the Crisis. The cherry on top for Morrowind's downfall came when Lie Rock finally completed its purpose, creating a perfect storm for Black Marsh to seize the opportunity to finally show up the dunmer after centuries of laying low.

What happened was pretty much planned out by Bethesda (the fall of the dunmer and the empire).

I'd like to say that the last time Red Mountain had a major eruption, the whole of Tamriel was covered with ash and gases, I believe. For quite some time. If there are no repercussions of it in TESV, I will be annoyed as hell. Even if it's not to as large a scale as last time, a game set in Skyrim would surely see something. What is the source of the 200 years later part of TESV? Is it speculation, or did an actual memeber of Bethesda say something? That's ridiculous, I think. There are so many things that would be great to take part in. The collapse/rebuilding of the empire, helping the new problems brought about by the ash caused by Red Mountain, etc.

Personally, I don't like the fact that the Argonians are doing well for themselves now. I loved how they where treated in Morrowind. I really feel for a race bound to slavery, and the race as a whole had a great personality, due to it. I just hope the Khajiit remain in slavery. Or even that the Argonians get drunk with power and start to enslave other races, themselves. THAT would be an awesome twist, imo.

I wouldn't think that the Argonians would have been able to take over a considerable amount of Morrowind, though. While, sure, they're immune to poison, but they need air to breathe. Surely, there would be a huge lack of oxygen with the air as it is? And, being amphibious, I would think they'd not be able to survive properly in such a warm climate? Then again, southern Morrowind is one big swamp...

Its not like mainland Morrowind will never be reclaimed by the Dunmer anyway. :shrug: A sizable amount of native Dunmer remain, on Solstheim, probably Telvannis, and underground in some places. So it's not like their culture is completely gone. They'll recover, and be stronger for it. It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

An actual member of the Beth team did say it was 200 years. Forgot who, but the information is legitimate. Plus, the empire already collapsed, and by the time Infernal City was taking place, it was in the process of rebuilding. At the moment, the empire is only Cyrodiil, and even then it's still shaky with all the insurgencies going on in the cities near the border of Valenwood.


Which game are you playing? It's only in Morrowind that the argonians were slaves, elsewhere they're free. Then again, any race in Morrowind is subjected to becoming a slave, it's just that the dunmer view the beast races as less than sub-dunmer.


Again, what are you smoking? The khajiit are not a slave race, it's only in Morrowind that they're enslaved (which is also subjected to any race, really). In Elswyr, the Mane was assassinated (the king khajiit, which is a HUGE DEAL), all the cities are ran by local authorities with an iron fist, and the wastes are patrolled by wandering bands of khajiit raiders and wanderers.


They kinda do...Their current views on anyone not argonian, including imperialized argonians, is pretty much comparable to how the dunmer viewed everyone (negatively). Have you even read the Infernal City? Most of what you are saying is covered in the book.


They only hold parts of southern Morrowind, elsewhere they're just a moving invasion force driving away the last pockets of the dunmer (if not finished already).

Amphibious, not amphibian; they're still lizards. Also, they can live in subtemperatures (Bruma and Solstheim), but it is in great discomfort without some fur boots to keep their feeties warm.


Pretty much, which is why it is also contested land.

I already did.



Just because there were marshlands there before the disaster doesn't mean there are marshlands there after the disaster. And I reiterate: If we speak of an eruption, then the Argonians would likewise be weakened. They'd live in a truly black marsh, or rather a grey one. If the ash hasn't gobbled up all the moisture.

That's precisely the point "We don't really know how far the devastation went" Yes, we do: It went precisely as far as the author needed it to be. Not as far as it makes sense, but only as far as the author needed it to be. Which is, again, bad storytelling. Either do or don't, but don't try to have a cake and eat it, too.



If your idea of a perfect storm is suicide... Neither the consequences of a volcano nor a meteor impact give a rat's posterior about political borders or the species of the folks it hits. They don't stop because there's a sign on the road that reads "You are now leaving Morrowind, welcome to Black Marsh". Their hatred will lead the Argonians to yell "good riddance" when the Dunmer are hit by disaster. But invading an area which following basic reason should be covered knee-deep in ash and have erratice weather is like attacking a machine gun battery with a couple of sticks and stones. A handful of archers can take out an entire army if it gets bogged down. And that's the point here: Whether in Black Marsh or in Morrowind, for the invasion to be a success, the Argonians must have been completely exempt from the consequences of the dual disaster. And that's simply protecting one's little pets so that they can do what one wants them to do - precisely the abysmal storytelling that I'm criticising. It's gerrymandering the destruction caused by natural disasters.



You still don't grasp that WHAT and HOW are two very distinct issues.

I still don't see a "yes" or "no" just a bunch of words. Be straight up. Are you angry that Morrowind was hit by Lie Rock, had Red Mountain blow its top, Vvardenfel is now ash, and the dunmer driven off. I just want a simple "yes" or "no." I don't want long explanations of bad story telling, I just want to know if you are angry with Morrowind being nuked or not. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a "yes" or "no."


I would really like to know how you know that all the other areas are equally as screwed. If you're making educated guesses or speculation, it's purely just that, fan speculation. Back it up with facts of how destructive the eruption and the collision did, for as far as anyone knows, the inner sea is still boiling years after The Red year, and Vivec Crater is covered in a few feet of ash.


All I see is you speculating, nothing more. There has been no facts of how badly the other countries were affected. However, as far as what has been seen in Black Marsh, it is still a giant swamp.


Why is it bad story telling to not mention what isn't really that important, relevant, or worth it right now. Would Lord of the Ring be any better of a story if we were told how Rivendel was doing ever so often, have Tom Bombadil appear every so often, or when the characters needed to have potty breaks? No it isn't.


Again, we don't know how badly the devastation was elsewhere, nor the precise time when the invasion came. It happened, the dunmer were removed, story over. Also, this BOOK ONE! Book two is coming out, and the merry group of adventurers are going to be heading to Solstheim, where the dunmer refugees are located, in order to find the sword of ultimate doom before the big baddies find it. If they don't mention it there, then you can criticize it.


And it's likely the HOW will be explained later, as it is not really relevant now.

I think it is best to wait until we have more information and details instead of trying to interpolate with what we have right now.

Agreed. Other than what is said in the book, it's just pure fan speculation.

I still don't like it. I want to be able to take part in these majorly important events.


To be honest, the Lore wasn't fully fleshed out until Morrowind, and Oblivion was far too happy all over. While, sure, they would be seen as common citizens outside of Morrowind, they should still have the feel about them that they've had a hard life. Almost all Argonians, for example, have been involved in slavery somehow. Be it escaping from enslavers, being a slave, or killing enslavers. Most Argonans in other provinces have came from Black Marsh.


I haven't actually read it (my eyes are awful, and I can't get new glasses for a long time), what I know is from what I've heard around the forums. I've always had the feeling that the Argonians simply taught the Dunmer a lesson and left. I think pretty much any race has the typical Dunmer view on other races. Some just hide it. What I want to see is power drunk argonians that enslave innocent people, and wage wars on other provinces. what did the book imply, exactly?


Fair enough.

Anyone who is not a real argonian (imperialized argonians are not real argonians) are going to die.

Modification: anyone who is not a real Argonian and not out of reach of the Hist is supposed to die. If you get far enough from the marsh you apparently loose your connection to them, which would prevent them from brainwashing you and leading you to your doom.

The Temple built their ministry of truth within the Madgod's lie. Haw haw haw.

Vivec's like, "Dumb asses. I'll love you for a time, anyway." But even he took foreign lovers. Naughty boy, making black men pregnant.

Sounds like Vivec

The size of the moon and its velocity are not really important except as related to whatever was triggered in Red Mountain. Eg - if the balance of things in Red Mountain was delicate any tiny thing might have set it off - Viverc's hubris for instance

The Dunmer were meant to have a dour charm - for my money they have more personality than many other races in ES - now that is personal taste - and the effect of a game/book/musical rendition on your personal taste is relevant if hard to dispute

It was Vvardenfell that the eruption destroyed not Morrowind. The side effects of the loss of such a valuable resource were obviously significant however - as no doublt the effects of Tsunamis etc that reached the mainland coast = low-lying cities destroyed if hit but not otherwise

Simple stuff. The debris and ash fallout etc would hyave been subect to prevailing winds. Any major city outside Morrowind would have been very unlucky to have been affected by the immediate falllout from the blast.itself and the later gasses ands so forth would only have moved according to prevailing winds and have quickly become diluted - likely over the sea. Freak transposition of gas/frogs whatever by violent forces have been known but none have been alluded to outside Morrowind -which makes that speculation unlikely. There has been no mention of such anomalies as yet officially that I am aware of - but it may be worth looking out for at a later date.

what really interests me is how this affects things metaphysically ... like the real fallout socially, culturally, economically etc may yet prove fertile ground - having said that we know that 'Houses' owing something to the culture from Morrowind survive in the future times and it may be that they become even more fascinatin than they were in morrowind - i just dony like waiting too long